How Adobe is driving dynamite digital experiences
On this episode of The CMO Show, Sheerien Salindera, APAC Digital Strategy Lead at Adobe, steps into the hot-seat.
Sheerien offers her insights into today’s digital economy, the exciting new technologies consumers have in their sights, and how Adobe is leading by example in the world of digital experiences.
Artificial intelligence, augmented reality, virtual worlds - they’ve all been on our radar for some time now, but have really arrived in a big way in 2023.
For marketers, each of these technologies brings exciting new frontiers and new ways to connect with customers.
So with the future suddenly knocking at the door, what exactly are customers looking for in their digital experiences and how are brands positioned to deliver?
“Our research shows we have to give customers credit because they're already thinking about immersive experiences,” says Sheerien Salindera, APAC Digital Strategy Lead at Adobe.
“It's not necessarily immersive as in an alternative universe, but more around bringing to life your brand, your product, your services in the home or pockets of your consumers.”
In a data-driven economy this might sound like a strategic gamble that invites some creative thinking from content marketing teams, but Sheerien says that’s exactly what we need.
“I think really where we're at now is companies and brands have spent a lot of time getting those data foundations right, and maybe content took a backseat,” Sheerien says.
“When we say creativity, it's not a data versus content story, you need both. It has to be who am I talking to in what context and what are their needs?”
So how is modern technology causing these worlds to coalesce and create meaningful and memorable digital experiences?
Fire up this episode of The CMO Show to hear Sheerien’s thoughts and insights gathered throughout her impressive career.
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Credits
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The CMO Show production team
Producer – Rian Newman
Audio Engineers – Ed Cheng & Daniel Marr
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Transcript:
Hello Mark Jones here you’re listening to The CMO Show, a marketing podcast made for and by marking professionals.
Now, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, virtual worlds have been on our radar for some time but they’ve really arrived in a big way in 2023.
If we think about Chat GPT of course, virtual headsets, the Metaverse – you’ve probably even used one of these services in the last week.
Each of these technologies is exciting and it brings new frontiers to marketers and new ways for brands to connect with customers.
So, the future is suddenly knocking at our door, what are customers looking for in digital experiences, and how are we as marketers positioned to deliver?
Welcome to the CMO Show, my guest today is Sheerien Salindera, APAC Digital Strategy Lead, at Adobe.
Now, full disclosure, we at ImpactInstitute have been working with Adobe for a long time now, however this was my first time meeting with Sheerien – and we had a really great conversation!
Many listeners will be well acquainted with Adobe products - both creative and strategic - and it was fascinating to explore how those worlds will coalesce in the years to come.
I also enjoyed hearing about some of the key insights Adobe has gathered from a survey of 13,000 consumers and more than 4,000 marketing and customer experience professionals around the world.
So, lots of data here and lots of great storytelling. It’s a fun chat, so let’s jump into it.
***
Mark
Thanks for joining me.
Sheerien Salindera
Hi, Mark. Really happy to be here. Thank you.
Mark
One of the fascinating things about your background is you've been on agency side, so my side of the desk as it were, and you've also been in media, something I've also done, and then Qantas and McDonald's. What a fascinating set of experiences. Just tell me a bit about what's been that drive for you in marketing and that ambition that's driven you across this first part of your career.
Sheerien Salindera
Oh gosh, that's a big question. All of us sometimes have a dream when you're a child and if you're really lucky, that dream ends up being your career. And I think I fall into that category. So I always was really good at telling stories and I think that just transitioned into selling stories, which really is how I sort of fell into marketing, I guess. But my first love was music, so I was a music journalist.
Mark
Oh, is that right?
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah.
Mark
Okay, so you need to name-drop people now.
Sheerien Salindera
I can't.
Mark
You're allowed.
Sheerien Salindera
No, I mean, look, I've interviewed everyone from Beyonce to Radiohead, but if I started telling you backstage stories, this podcast might go in a very different direction.
Mark
All right, fine. I want to get to the customer experience and the DX story in a second, but one more question along these lines. Obviously working for Adobe on the software, on the vendor side, lot different to being at Qantas and other in-house roles. What's that experience been like for you? Because the listener and I know and I've heard from many listeners on The CMO Show, just incredible variety of backgrounds. Just interested in what that experience has been like for you.
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, look, I think when you're in the hot seat and you're fundamentally responsible for how a customer interacts with your brand, your every day could be the app isn't working, the homepage is down, you've got to get campaigns out the door. McDonald's, we were worried about the millisecond of changing the digital menu boards when you walk into a McDonald's. So you are in the coal face and every day is very much whether you're senior, mid-range or that it doesn't matter 'cause the problem hits your desk.
My favourite kind of actual anecdote was whenever customers would get to the CEO with a letter of complaint and it's always the marketing team that picks up that letter and then it just reminds you that you are that custodian of the customer. And whether it's the digital channel, whether it's the fancy brand ad or whether it's just he's a customer that has got to the CEO and they've got a problem, can you fix it?
It always hit your desk. So that kind of just having the diversity of problems to solve on any given day, definitely miss. But I think Adobe having walked in the shoes of the customer and walked in the shoes of marketers and understand how complex some of the stuff that we as Adobe like to talk about, I think it actually has helped me break down the Adobe research and some of the stuff we're going to talk about because I understand what it means in practical terms, but I will say I miss some of those. You don't like it when you're in it, but they're exciting days.
Mark
Yeah, well I mean these days you are obviously in the business of supporting professionals in marketing and CX, et cetera. So yeah, it's interesting to think about it from that point of view. Let's dive into then a bit of word association. When you think about customer experience, what are some words that come to mind?
Sheerien Salindera
Simplicity, convenience, meaningful, creative, fun.
Mark
Oh, I like that. Yeah, fun. When you think about the process of doing all of that, and you and I have had the advantage of talking bit before we turned on the microphones, but it's an ever-evolving science. What's the challenge in being creative? And I think probably where I'm headed here is that we're in, if not already for most CMOs heading into the AI world and there's going to be a magic moment here, isn't there? Where we go, "Hang on a minute. My creativity, my ability to try new things is really about to get amplified."
Sheerien Salindera
I love that. I think absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting because you asked me to cast my mind back to what it was like customer side or agency side. And when your agency side, you're having these creative debates all day long. When your customer side, like I said, it's about problem solving and you just never know what level you're sort of operating at. And now you think back to just the heart of serving that customer, really understanding who they are, what their needs are. And I think I asked you before if I can be as cheesy, I like my one-liners, but my cheesy line is always data is the voice of the customer and content is the reply.
So I think when we say creativity, it's not a data versus content story, you need both. It has to be who am I talking to in what context and what are their needs? But if you just give them a flat reply or a non-empathetic reply or a non-exciting reply, depending on that context, not great. So for me, I think really where we're at now is companies and brands and certainly a lot of the customers I speak to have spent a lot of time getting those data foundations right, and maybe content took a backseat or maybe content just became a little bit more of that day in day out process.
But with the emergence and we're on that frontier now of AI and generative AI and just phenomenal creative tool set that's coming out. Yeah, I think it's time, if I can say another cheesy line is putting the C back into marketing, C for creative. I think we've spent a lot of time for marketers being in the operational land. Certainly the conversations I have is, "I don't have time to think about brand and creative because we are dealing with a natural disaster," or, "I've got to get my frontline retrained," or it's been very reactive and very operationally led. I think it's actually time for creative and brand storytelling to come back to the forefront.
Mark
Oh look, you're talking my language here. I've been a content guy for the longest time. One thing I would say though, it's interesting that it seems to me that a lot of brands have moved from thinking of themselves as publishers of content, as possibly as orchestrators, as participants in a content related conversation. And also by the way, customers and consumers and particularly in B2B as well, are producing that content. So that reply that you're talking about quite often is in the social media context or responding to what's going on. It's a very, very different world to I think even five years ago, right?
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, and I think one of the Adobe sort of concepts that we are really focused on is exactly what you just described. The demand for content has never been higher. So whether you are one-to-one chat channel, whether it's the social channels you mentioned, whether it's your broadcast channels or whether it's that really hyper personalised email or app or even in the physical sort of setting, if you step back for a minute and just think, that is a hell of a lot of creative assets that actually very small and nimble teams need to make these days.
That's where we are really focused on. Before we get to the exciting stuff that AI can do, how can that content process be more fluid, more frictionless, more automated just so people can collaborate? And to use your terms, whether that's your internal creative design teams, whether it's agency to brand to customer, whether it's the B2B, I just think, yeah, that's where we're sort of spending a lot of time. Because often when we speak to marketers and I go, "What is your day to day problem?" They're actually going, "It's still in that the pain of going from insight to idea to creative asset and distributing it." So I think there's a lot of focus there.
Mark
Yeah, and I want to pick up on that friction word because an experience that I certainly know from our organisation and also talking with clients and customers, we are almost impatient to get rid of that friction and we are looking for those easy connection points between an idea and publishing or engaging online in some sort of way. And I know that we're obviously speaking into Adobe's sweet spot here and the sets of tools that you provide, but what's your view on how that dynamic's reshaping the digital economy? Because it seems like yes, there's lots of really great tools and tech coming out, but there's an incredible pull from the consumer side.
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, and I think it's the old sort of adage, do you give consumers what you think they want or do you respond in real time to what they're telling you they want? And I think if you can have the apparatus and the systems in place to be truly responsive to context, that's always going to win. And if I think about the question in terms of the digital economy, what's the pull coming from customers? As certainly the research we've done recently, customers, we have to give them credit, they're already thinking about immersive experiences and that's not necessarily those images you see of VR headsets.
It can just be the concept of designing my shoe or my car online and then buying it physically, just spending time with products and services. Can I watch a video or can I get an idea of the fabric or can I understand what that colour palette or what that couch is going to look like in my home by using an app to measure it? So they're very tactile kind of ideas, but consumers are already thinking in that world and that's the expectation I guess they're having, which is around brands. Like it's not necessarily immersive as in an alternative universe, it's more around bringing to life your brand, your product, your services, but in a way the real world into the home or into the pocket of your consumers.
Mark
And they're looking to solve a problem, which is in that, if it's the furniture example, what would the room look if I put a big giant red couch there? For example. As opposed to, "Gee, I'd like a really great immersive virtual experience right now." No one thinks that, right?
Sheerien Salindera
I know we could sit here on the CMO podcast and laugh, but we can always fall into industry speak. But yeah, it's really going back to what you said, which is what are the customers pulling at? And I think, yeah, that's certainly some things that are top of mind. Another big piece that we've done a lot of research on is customers are actually vocalising with their choices around who they spend with and which brands they spend with based on trust. Do they implicitly trust the brand they're interacting with?
Even in the current, say Australian New Zealand context where obviously cost of living's top of mind, interest rates top of mind, the latest research locally says that customers will put trust at a higher premium than even price or product availability. So this is sort of really interesting and I think marketers and the CMOs listening have a big role to play in terms of how that trust actually comes to life with the way customers experience their brands.
Mark
It's an extraordinary data point. And if I'm right, you are talking about this future of DX survey that you guys produced recently. I'm curious to understand a bit more about that because trust in my view is a product of a set of experiences that build up over time. So it definitely implies that there's an ongoing type of interaction or at least a set of expectations that follow an initial interaction. So what's your view on how CMOs should be thinking about trust in that way? Because you can't manufacture it, it's the product of an experience, right?
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, and I don't want to sort of confuse your amazing audience, but because I'm a data nerd and I've got all these research floating around in my head, a different report, but just for retail specifically said, "It only takes two bad experiences for someone to switch brands." So when you say that trust is acccumulative, it's obviously in a marketplace like Australia where you have quite a few strong operators, like you have four banks, you have a couple of grocers.
That might come under pressure, but brands, we also know brands switching is at an all time high. So trust, I feel like yes, traditionally it's about being earned over time and potentially people are a bit more forgiving, but for whatever sort of underlying reasons are at play at the moment, they might come back to you. But that initial kind of, let's call it the forgiveness window, I've just made that up on the spot, it's actually, it's under pressure at the moment.
***
Mark
I think that we're at an interesting point now with these digital experiences where we are seeing a few tipping point moments. I think the Apple Vision Pro is one. ChatGPT is another one. Whatever the Metaverse is going to be, possibly another one. And people are starting to create a set of expectations based on that. So whether or not we're going to be walking around with these crazy goggles on the whole time or not, I don't know, but we are starting to get an emerging set of expectations. What do you think they'll be? You probably have some data on this too, right?
Sheerien Salindera
Well first I might do a shameless plug and add another word to that list of amazing techs, Adobe Firefly. Hopefully that sort of rolls off the tongue as easier, as easy as some of the other Apple and Meta products that you mentioned. I think first of all, let's just go back to the consumer expectations. So I work for a big tech company and you just mentioned all the tech, so we can talk about it from a tech perspective or we can talk it from a consumer perspective.
From a consumer perspective, again, I give them more credit. They're already thinking or expecting and actually called out a timeframe. Like, within the next couple of years or two years specifically I think brands should be able to give me games, I can win prizes, I can win points, I can interact socially with my friends in a virtual setting, brands should be giving me VIP experience, whether it's real world or online. These are all the sort of things when you ask customers, "Imagine if," or, "What are you most excited about?"
And then from a tech side, interestingly, a lot of these conversations you just mentioned around the way AI and journey, value AI is playing out, I guess what's really topical and what's on everyone's lips is the sort of text version of that technology. And something that Adobe's really proud of is standing on the laurels of our creative history and our creative DNA and leaning into what can these tools do from an image perspective, which goes back to the conversation we had around good old-fashioned marketing. Whether you're producing a catalogue, whether you're producing an email, whether you're producing something for those fancy headsets that you just talked about, you still need content.
Mark
Well, it's brand and the brand experience. So more broadly, it's what are those set feelings and experiences you are deliberately trying to foster? And now suddenly we've got an entirely different universe to think about.
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, and I think this happens every few years. And again, I'm probably speaking a little bit more like old Sheerien as a marketer as opposed to with my Adobe hat on. But I remember being in the digital sort of function on the digital team. Some exec would go, "Do we need to be on Snapchat? Do I need to be on TikTok? What should we be doing with this tech?" And again, I think that's the risk with all this exciting stuff. And I really think though, when we break away from that kind of something new, what do we do with it mechanic that can happen and step back and go, "Fundamentally we know customer expectations are increasing. I'm in charge of CX or my team has a big role to play in CX and we know digital is inherent to good CX."
And then you go, "Okay, what are the problems I need to solve? How do I really elevate my customer experience? How do I connect different channels? How do I bring that physical brilliance into the digital spaces?" And then all of a sudden the question's not what do we need to do with AI or how do we respond with chat? It's just goes back to the basics of CX design, which is articulating those pain points from a customer lens and then thinking, what can we solve it with and is there tech that makes that solution easier?
Mark
What I like about that is you are really getting back to basics, which is how can we improve the existing experiences or even just transactions that people are having? We've talked about this for a while, how do we take friction out of transactions, but how can we augment or provide additional value? Start there before we get into the crazy stuff, is that part of what you're saying?
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, and I promise this isn't scripted, you just perfectly described taking the friction out of a transaction. And interestingly the Adobe DX report actually when we sat down with 14,000 consumers globally and asked them, "What are you most excited about when it comes to this kind of digital experience world?" Convenience came number one, which is exactly the definition you just sort of gave.
I really think convenience in FSI convenience, the conversation we have in banking is speed to yes. Whether it's a credit card application or a mortgage application, which you can imagine the current climate's really important for people who are trying to maximise their sort of outgoings and in goings kind of thing. In retail convenience used to be, oh, it's all speed. But now is it more important for some customers that the substitution of the product. If something's out of stock, do you want your delivery slot or do you really want an accurate order? This kind of different dimensions that are emerging. So convenience kind of really came through. And the other two I feel like we've touched on but we're just by mention is creativity and community.
Mark
I want to give you a little community example from one of my favourite things to do on the weekend, which is go to Bunnings and get a sausage. And speaking of community, 'cause I do genuinely enjoy supporting community groups in a number of ways, but I paid for my sausage by tapping someone else's phone. Now normally it's one of those little square card readers. And for me that was just a nice little moment of like, "Oh, we are just kind of getting a bit better as time and time goes on," when you see these little moments and we just take them for granted.
I have a sort of view that a lot of customers, we want the delight moment, we want that sort of, "Oh, it just works." But I think getting there, you've got to have a sense of creativity about you. If you're going to orchestrate an experience, you've got to muck around with this stuff, you've got to get your hands dirty and then try and apply it. Right? Is that a fair way to think of creativity or is it more about our storytelling? Is it more about that sort of traditional notions of creativity?
Sheerien Salindera
Big question, but I really ... it's funny, I know I mentioned at the time my passion being music and the story that came to my mind when you were talking about your Bunnings sausage was I always liked to give to musicians on the street or buskers and then I used to say, "Oh sorry, I don't have any change on me," and the busker that goes, "Oh no, don't worry, I've got my digital pay pass." I was like, "Okay."
Mark
Fine.
Sheerien Salindera
But that's what you're talking about, right?
Mark
Yeah.
Sheerien Salindera
It was they are keeping up with the technology, they're keeping up with ... They recognise that people don't carry cash anymore. They've looked at the problem, they've come up with a little piece. So I bring that up because again, very simple, but it talks to what you are asking, which is creative in the everyday and or creative at that sort of top of funnel, brand level. And really I guess the way we kind of think about it and what consumers are expecting is that you have my data, please act on it.
I'm happy to give you that, but create that value exchange. And that value might be in a really small gesture just in terms of the email. It might be when you go in store, your preferences are noted. It could be that's something you did with a call centre. When you go into branch, they actually know, "Oh, this is what you tried to call us up about. Let me pick up where you left off so I don't have to repeat myself."
So they're all sort of examples of what the industry calls personalization. But in the end, I think that's what we mean by creativity. So it can come to life in those micro moments or it can come to life in that big emotive storytelling piece as well. But the end of the day, it's still fundamentally down to the story you want to tell in understanding who your customer you're speaking to and then responding with that and hopefully doing it with better tools and technology so you actually have more time to not just go product out of stock. The brands who are doing chat really well actually bring the brand to life in those communications.
Mark
I mean the jargon to apply some is personalization at scale. What we're talking about, and I know that's one of the great nirvanas is one-to-one communication, personalization at scale. And I think that's something we've got to keep holding onto quite frankly as professionals is how are we going to get there? And going back to your Firefly reference, and again this isn't scripted either, but what's the view on where things are going from an Adobe perspective? One of the things I've enjoyed about Adobe events over the years has been the sneaks, things that are coming. I don't want to put you on the spot here, I mean you can't reveal too much, but what's the approach you're taking to some of these emerging technologies?
Sheerien Salindera
Look, first and foremost, I think there's two distinct ways that Adobe's approaching this that again, are just core to ... I know ImpactInstitute spends a long time talking about purpose, and these are true, they go back decades.
Mark
We do.
Sheerien Salindera
The first one is that AI and generative AI and whatever the sort of new tech is a co-pilot to your core toolkit. It's not a replace, rip out, and or. It's an enhancement sort of approach. And the second sort of principle is around,
Sheerien Salindera
It's around sort of responsibility. I mean that with a big R. I think Adobe is really, really, really thinking about content authenticity. What are the checks and balances that we need to put in place? How does a brand actually take its story and control their brand and control their narrative, but use the machine and the AI learning to actually replicate the nuances of the brand and learn it? But do it in a way that's responsible, that's safe, that's IP protected and all of that kind of thing. So I think really the differentiator for Adobe is yes, these things are exciting, but we're really trying to think of them as co-pilots and how they enhance existing technologies and tools.
The second part of it is preempting the problem spots because all technology can be used for good or for bad. And then if you can preempt it and build those fail safes into the kit, and also just have the conversation. So we're here sort of talking about this stuff, but there's whole team that's talking about privacy and policy and trust and we're happy to go sit with the customer and workshop that or go, "This is our version of best practise," or, "This is what we are hearing," et cetera. So I think you can't just do the exciting stuff without having the other side bedded down as well.
Mark
Yeah, and I think the governance side of it, in particular in security, I know that there's a big story at Adobe on that side of things. I'm interested, what's the style or type of conversations you're having with CMOs and customers about their approach to this? Because is it a case of all right, prove that you've got the governance security and the privacy and other things sorted and then I'll have a creative conversation with you? Or is it, I've actually got this big idea and I'm just taking for granted all that other stuff?
Sheerien Salindera
It's really mixed. So a couple of examples in the sort of media publishing world, I actually think that industry is really ready for this sort of stuff because they have muscle memory in place around fact checking or how to produce content quickly, how to meet the demands of the 24/7 news cycle, et cetera. So some industries are already have those inbuilt kind of systems if you like, but then there's complete out of the box kind of industries who are grappling with, as you said before, the word scale. And they want to drive their CX forward. They really have a lot of customers, they have a big physical footprint, so they're looking for AI as an automation tool. And actually it's all back office and it's operations and it's not even ... it's sort of more around how does AI help out employee experience. So I think EX is just as important as how does AI help our CX or our front facing classroom experience.
And then I think the second part of your question, 'cause I always like to not dodge a question, what's the approach? And I think everyone's appetite for risk is different, but I do think in the current climate I would say there's probably a bit more levelling on that risk, which is absolute. There's no rush to be the first brand that does X, Y. So I think it's more embedded just in the, this is our customer experience, we already have a chatbot, but it's currently performing X and not Y. How do we enhance it? Or this is our content production process. We have a team that has to localise X, Y, Z asset 1,000 times a day. Is there a way that we can make that quicker and faster?
So again, I think the really good brands are not running to the legal governance committee. They're coming at it from, again, just based on their wheelhouse, what they're comfortable with, what their day in day out looks like, and then going, "How does this stuff help me do this better?"
Mark
Yeah, there's a sort of maturity journey or maybe it's that iterative approach, not the lift and shift to borrow another cliche, which I quite like that perspective because some of the press that you can read around this stuff, you get the impression that a lot of these new techs and tools coming in and they're going to cut a swath through tech stacks and things like that. And it's just not the case. Companies don't work like that. They don't want to destroy existing transaction systems, existing processes, teams that are working on things. And I'm sure you've seen this multiple times through your career, right?
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, definitely. I feel like, I don't want to plug brands, but the word automation I just reminds me of my McDonald's days because the way that you could teach a 14-year-old to make a Big Mac the same every time? It's a system and it's actually a version of automation. But now if you had image recognition technology in there or something that goes, "Hang on, that Big Mac slightly off," or it's just enhancing a kind of well buttoned down existing process or an existing system.
So the brands who do things well and have high quality product, good craftsmanship, amazing services, all those reasons that build trust, all those reasons that deliver on personalization and the reasons why customers come back to brand, I talked to McDonald's, but another really good one is actually grocery. When you have to plug in how many avocados you have, how many tomatoes. So already image recognition and AI is helping. You don't have to do that extra step. It goes back to what you were saying, taking the friction out. So there's like two examples, but see how they really, it's simple.
Mark
Well, they're already getting there and I know at Woollies they've got that automated thing when you're scanning and it stops you for things, you've still got stuff left in your basket. So already starting to see some of those things come through, I'm just a bit worried it's going to pick me up for choosing the wrong type of banana when you choose the cheap one. And it's supposed to be the expensive one. I'm really paranoid about getting caught out on those things. But I think that sort of level of real time analysis and interactivity is kind of what we're expecting, right?
Sheerien Salindera
Yeah, if it helps you, I guess there's everything in marketing and technology, you can look at it with the cynical lens, we can look at it a customer lens. So does that help groceries and retailers avoid fraud or pay more labour costs, which we know have been going up and it's really hard to find great staff so you rely on the machines? Or does it help the consumer and like we said, save them time? So hopefully the brands that really want to differentiate can find those sweet spots where absolutely it drives value for you as a business because you've got to report back to your shareholders and to the board, but also fundamentally where possible it is delivering a tangible benefit to the customer.
Mark
Can I just say, thank you for your time. We've really covered a lot of ground, haven't we? Your former career, some of the things that you're doing now at Adobe and that report into customers. So all the best as you embark on this process of continuing to engage with customers. Thank you for being my guest today on The CMO Show.
Sheerien Salindera
Thank you, Mark.
***
Well there you go! A big thanks to Sheerien for joining us and I hope you found something to take away from our conversation.
It's interesting to reflect on just how much technology powers what we do. I really loved how Sheerien is able to speak about it in a way that’s fresh and exciting, and at the same time still rooted in some of those basic marketing principles that we can’t forget about.
And it’s great to hear someone from the vendor side who’s so passionate about the place of brand, content and creativity in the marketing mix.
As she says: data is the voice of the customer and content is the reply - and I think that’s a grerat way to frame it.
So that’s it for today, thanks for listening, we’ll see you next time on The CMO Show.