The Trust Deficit: What Marketers Must Do Next
Trust is rising in Australia according to this year’s Trust Barometer, but so is anxiety, division and scepticism. In this episode of The CMO Show, Mark Jones is joined by Jo Osorio, Chief of Staff & Interim CEO of Edelman Australia, and Paula Cowan, Managing Director of ImpactInstitute, to unpack this year’s findings and explore what they mean for marketers, communicators and business leaders.
The conversation examines a growing paradox. While trust in government and media continues to decline, employers and businesses continue to be seen as the most reliable institutions in people's lives. Against a backdrop of rising anxiety, economic uncertainty and increasing social division, organisations are being asked to do more than communicate effectively. They are being challenged to demonstrate competence, integrity, purpose and care.
Jo and Paula discuss the intersection of trust and social impact, in tackling what the Trust Barometer outlines as an increasingly insular mindset. They explore the importance of reputation built on social good as a brand lever.
For marketers, the implications are significant. The discussion explores how organisations can communicate sustainability and impact with credibility, activate trusted voices, and build stronger relationships with stakeholders through listening, transparency and genuine engagement.
The episode also examines the role of trust during periods of transformation, from AI and workforce change to evolving expectations around diversity, inclusion and social impact. Jo and Paula share practical insights into measuring impact, fostering collaboration across differing viewpoints and creating the conditions for long-term trust inside and outside organisations.
Ultimately, this conversation challenges leaders to rethink trust not as a reputation metric, but as the foundation for meaningful relationships, organisational resilience and sustainable growth in an increasingly divided world.
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This episode of The CMO Show was brought to you by host Mark Jones, producers Niall Hughes, Kirsten Bables, Syd Le, and audio engineer Ed Cheng. This is an edited excerpt of the podcast transcript.
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Mark Jones:
Isn't it interesting to think about the fact that we tend not to trust government and media as two examples of institutions that are out of favour, but we do trust employers and it doesn't matter what type of employer, we expect our employer to look after us. And so if you're in marketing and communications, what does that mean for the way you do your job?
Thanks for joining us on the CMO Show. Today we're going to talk about the Edelman Trust Barometer. It comes out every year and joining us is Jo Osorio. She is the chief of staff and interim CEO at Edelman Australia and Paula Cowan, the managing director at ImpactInstitute. Now I'm particularly interested in this conversation because this is an annual barometer. What are consumers thinking about and how do we reflect on that as marketers? There's lots of things going on from sustainability and social impact.
We think about the underlying values that drive trust is a particularly important part of the conversation. And then just more broadly, what are people thinking and feeling? So let's get stuck into the conversation. Jo and Paula, thank you for joining me on the CMO show.
Jo Osorio:
Thanks
Paula Cowan:
Thanks.
Jo Osorio:
... for having me.
Paula Cowan:
Good to be here.
Mark Jones:
This is the second year we've had you on to speak about, you meaning as a representative of Edelman, the Trust Barometer. And so there's a really nice sense of progression that comes through that. But actually if we start with trust as a broad topic, I'd love to get both of you to give me a bit of a broad sketch because it really dictates from a CMO's point of view. It dictates our strategy. What are the organisations that we, the people trust and what are those that we don't? And that has such an incredible impact on our strategies, on the tactics about which media plans we adopt, et cetera. So what do you reckon?
Jo Osorio:
Well, I think you break it down simply when you think about trust, there's two key things to think about. What constitutes trust is competence and ethics.
Mark Jones:
Yeah.
Jo Osorio:
So from a competence perspective we're talking about can you do what you say you do? Can you be dependable? Fundamentally that's the first gate.
And I think increasingly people are also thinking about trust in the view of ethics. So do I have integrity in how I show up in the world, whether you are a government, whether you're a brand, whether you are a journalist, it's about integrity just as much. We also look at purpose as well. Do you have purpose in society? Do you contribute? And I think when you put all those things together, trust is important because of all of the, I guess, the social cohesion issues that we have going on in the world, the mistrust that we have in institutions to look out for each other. And I think that's one of the sad things when I look at trust each year, everyone always tells me when we present the data, "Oh, tell us something positive." And it's like, well, yeah, it's sad to see that where we get to today is because people have not trusted institutions to do what is right. That's the fundamental question that we ask people.
Mark Jones:
Yeah.
Jo Osorio:
And institutions over many years have not done what is right, whether you are government, I mean, talk about climate wars 3.0 right now that's happening, whether you are a media house, there is a lot of the reasons why we trust is important.
Mark Jones:
Well, you make a really good point there, which is you've connected trust with ethics and values and purpose, right? So actually it's a container for, or actually it's representing quite a bit of depth and into that comes all of these emotions. So you said you would behave this way, I expected this, these are my ethical views, you've breached them so I can see why you've made that connection. What do you think, Paula?
Paula Cowan:
Look, I think it also underscores relationships. So I was reflecting on this too at probably an interpersonal level. There's a fair amount of trust to even go on a second date with somebody, right? I feel like that's one of the biggest decisions you ever make and you're interpreting signals from somebody at that very early point and if we, I suppose translate that into the business setting, there's very little that an organisation can do on its own anymore. You increasingly need buy-in from government or positive policy settings in your favour or you need to partner with an organisation to execute your strategy. So those relationships there are really important. And then I also think internally we are going through times of change and transformation. We've always been changing, but there seems to be some transformations that are happening geopolitically, moving from maybe two polar points of power in the world to spread out and distribute it as we're having to broker relationships, I guess with more and more types of people different from us now. And then having to take your workforce along the journey with you.
We look at some organisations that are massively transforming around AI, whether AI is the real reason for mass layoffs or other reasons, don't know. But the workforce that remains still need to trust in that organisation and other organisations need to trust it to continue.
Mark Jones:
There's an interesting dynamic here too, of course, which is that for us, in an agency/client perspective, there's trust for every CMO, they have trust within their teams and their own agencies. So you can see that that expands out. Jo, what about the highlights? So we probably should jump into a bit of the data first. So take us through some of the highlights for this year's Trust Barometer.
Jo Osorio:
So for the 25 years we've looked at trust in the institutions of business, media, government, and we fundamentally have seen significant trust shifts. So we've seen trust move from traditional authorities, so top down. We've seen the impact of the income divide. We've seen business rise as the most trusted institution. We saw that in COVID actually interestingly.
But I think over the years with the challenges of the income divide, with misinformation with the geopolitical issues we're seeing now in the world, it has really created a sense of polarisation, grievance and now what we're saying this year is we're seeing increased insularity. And it goes back to what I was saying earlier, that people just do not feel that institutions are acting in their best interest.
And so this year we've arrived at the theme of insularity where we've found that about 73% of Australians don't trust someone that has the same belief systems or values. They do not trust them fundamentally. And that's really disturbing when you think of some of the transformation and innovation that we need to work together on to progress society, that we fundamentally do not trust people.
Mark Jones:
I had an interesting question about that actually because I found that factoid pretty challenging. And if I could ask a potentially controversial question, what's the cultural lens through which that question was asked? Is it a all cultures looking at each other, not trusting each other? Is that the fundamental thing or is it a very kind of coming from this legacy white mindset? Do you see what I'm saying? Because it's a really nuanced result.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah. We ask the question point-blank, so there's no kind of context leading into the question. So I think you'll make that assumption based on what's happening in society overall.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah.
Paula Cowan:
And it was evident in large chunks, I think in…
Jo Osorio:
Yeah.
Paula Cowan:
And it was evident in large chunks, I think in India and China as well as other organisations. So very culturally distinct geographies.
Jo Osorio:
Australia's one of the highest in the world.
Mark Jones:
In terms of multicultural or...
Jo Osorio:
In terms of that data point, not being able to trust people with the same values and belief systems.
Mark Jones:
I think this is a really important one to dig into because not only are we multicultural here in Australia but globally. And from a strategy point of view in marketing, it's like how do you make your way through that?
Jo Osorio:
How do you get through that? Yeah.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah, it is interesting. I think we've got a very interesting history of multiculturalism being a policy setting that's been encouraged in Australia in ways that haven't been internationally. So not only have migrants been sort of welcomed, settled, encouraged to participate but not forced to integrate fully. So being able to celebrate culture and being able to celebrate diversity, I think there's been a real loss of opportunity and strategy when DE&I programmes were deprioritized for instance. And we saw that happen around November last year, very suddenly.
And I think that missed opportunity is around those many brains and many cultures and many perspectives that actually strengthen an idea that can bring different perspectives. And test them with a bit of deliberation, with a bit of risk, with a bit of actually in our culture, this works this way. And you end up with a far stronger idea than you would have if you hadn't brought in those other perspectives. So we were beginning I thought to see the delivery on the promise of that concept and I think it's a real missed opportunity. And I think those organisations that can find a way to harness it regardless, whatever you want to call that programme, but those initiatives do need deliberate cultivation. They don't just happen on their own organically.
I think because we're seeing this, difference is actually hard to overcome. We can't pretend that it's not. So you need to make an effort and I think the more that it's the context is provided or the ability to cultivate that we'll see strength and where we operate is in the disability space. And I think there's a real opportunity there too to continue that nothing about us without us mindset where people who are most affected by decisions and outcomes are involved in their design.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Included. Yeah.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah. And I think you see a far better result.
Mark Jones:
So what's your take, Jo?
Jo Osorio:
It's such an interesting topic. Obviously I'm second generation in Australia with an Asian background and I think one of the things that always strikes me when you're sitting in a room, when an agency, when a brief comes in, it feels so, who are you talking to?
Mark Jones:
Right.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah. So I don't see myself as a reflection. I grew up not seeing myself as a reflection of what Australian society was because I didn't see myself on the screen. There was no mirror.
Mark Jones:
You didn't identify.
Jo Osorio:
And I feel that that's still very much the case in many ways. And I think there's been a significant improvement in what you see on TV and representation is really important. But what struck me in your response was about policy-driven versus something being organic. And so I wonder how much policy-driven and being told to integrate and being told to be multicultural plays a role because no one likes to be told what to do.
Mark Jones:
No. Heck, no.
Paula Cowan:
No they don't, but I think where it's incentivized is really interesting. So if we think about like procurement strategy and you see that globally really strong in Europe, pretty strong here in Australia actually too, where there are large businesses or government organisations making large purchases. And they've made an intentional decision to prioritise environmental and social care and good governance. Now where that exists, you see that in procurement opportunities and organisations that can gear themselves around that and deliver on that policy setting have preferential sort of point scoring in that comparison.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah, the tender process.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah, and the tender process. So when we think about trust, I could say, yeah, I'm a great operator. I'm really good at ESG, but there's going to be a verification process, so trust, but verify. And I think those organisations that have got themselves organised not only around delivering on social value, so proper employment, am I involving in the community and what's going on? Am I taking care of the environment? Have I got good decision making, modern slavery policies in place? Can I demonstrate that?
I get more sort of preference in that procurement process and then can I verify that? So where there is verification, say as a certified social enterprise, a B Corp, a disability owned, woman owned business, I might have climate credentials, I've got all my ISO certifications in place. I'm much better positioned to meet the needs of very large corporations or governments that are really looking to build value in communities, not extract. And I think those organisations that can get their trust signals right, have an advantage in that space. So it should be in my view.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah.
Mark Jones:
I also wonder about your point around inclusion in terms of decision making and this is again going to the CMO mindset in terms of the strategy around who's in the room. I wonder if that's where this is leading. So decision making, and I'll give you what came to mind. You mentioned to me, you listened to our MLA Lamb Ad interview. We talked about how they go through the process and the classic thing in marketing, of course, is you do your research and you come up with the creative idea and you execute, right? And they're a really great case in point because from a strategy point of view, they've always wrestled with this idea of the faces that we show, right? And my mind jumps straight to like when you search for stock photos with all the perfect mix.
Jo Osorio:
The United Colours of Benetton.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah, yeah. They really nailed it back then.
Mark Jones:
And this shifts and changes because it's like, well, who are we preferencing? And so that's very difficult, but this is actually, what you're saying is that we've got to get better at bringing the right voices into the room, not just doing research so that we show the voices and we've got to be thinking about these divides in society. So is the CMO, is the marketer now challenged with this idea of bringing people together at the same time as making a buck? Like that's a big…
Jo Osorio:
Tough call.
Mark Jones:
That's a big ask. And what if your company is not driven by social impact, right? I don't mean that negatively, but CMOs are going to be different points on this spectrum.
Jo Osorio:
Well, I think communications and marketing needs to be more localised, I think.
And I think as people increasingly trust people around them, perhaps even that we're going to see much more localised communications, smaller groups. I think communications is changing right now. That is why we're seeing a creator and influencer just skyrocketing in terms of the proportion of spend that marketing and comms is spending right now and I think you're going to start to see things that maybe don't sit on TV. They will sit in community. They'll sit in groups. They'll sit at a library potentially. They sit in a regional community pub. That's what I think engagement and communications of the future is going to look like. It has to look like that because I don't think you're able to communicate to everyone all through one type of campaign anymore. So it's what are the iterations of that? Yeah.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah. And I would add then from the community side onto the digital space where AI search is becoming a bit of a beast to wrestle with and whether you're socially minded or not. There are certain elements that you need to be found and trusted and ideally purchased. So if we think about, if you're marketing a product, we've typically in marketing and comms relied on a very creative approach to that. Find something clever, a human truth and something emotional and feed through, but the machines…
Jo Osorio:
There's attention.
Paula Cowan:
Are the machines reading emotion and cleverness and your witty double meaning of the double entendre? Probably not. So the challenge and opportunity there, I guess, is to codify that. Can you break down and make explicit what is implicit in your clever, creative idea, and then can you really lay out what your product is about? Does it also need verification and credentials? Do you need to describe it really explicitly? Do you need to make sure all your credentials are up to date?
I think you had a guest on the CMO show recently, Katja, who was talking about agents purchasing... Katja Forbes, purchasing products on behalf of buyers. And the trust really being something that was machine readable, not my vibe. So I think marketers can go deep into community in certain areas. They really...I think marketers can go deep into community in certain areas. They really need to get explicit on products and services so that your description is there, your thought leadership compliments that, your third party media endorsement is there. Have you got authority from master heads that other people respect? And then are you clever and bright and creative…
Jo Osorio:
Personable and speak to me.
Paula Cowan:
... as well. Yeah. So I think our job has got both harder in a way but more interesting in terms of being able to really break down and identify those elements of a really great campaign into something that your machines can also love, appreciate, and possibly buy.
Mark Jones:
Let's talk about employers.
Because we're employers. And I think the trust component of that is interesting. You mentioned at the top about NGOs and government and media and business. I think if we are expecting employers to do more heavy lifting in terms of being trusted organisations or institutions that have an impact on society, from a CMO perspective, that trusted piece tends to fall to HR and leaders, and marketers not so much. Even though they're very good at understanding how people are doing in a team and what the external audiences are doing. So I wonder for both of you what you think that means for the marketer and the comms people, because there's an opportunity to be a more influential voice in the room, I would have thought.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah. I think there's a concept of brand I guess that applies externally and internally. So we think of having an employer brand or employee brand, and there's definitely elements of marketing communications that can apply internally. I think within an organisation you are privy to organisational strategy. You have very clear values that hopefully are put into service as you work. Maybe people are hired and fired around those. There's expectations around your role that are quite clear. They're written down, they're codified again. And you've got a real sense of what it takes for that organisation to work.
So I can kind of understand from the research why I would trust my own business more than I would another one. I just don't have the same level of access to all of that internal information for another organisation. And I suppose the more that it is again, lined up and consistent, competent, ethical within your organisation, the more that trust builds there's a lot of responsibility with the trust that you've earned within your organisation, again, to deploy it responsibly and ethically. But I think I can see why those ingredients and where marketing and comms, where messaging is very clear internally is a bit of a superpower.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah. And I'd just add to that, I think it's also about the consistent experience that you have at a workplace, like what is the journey from an employee's perspective from onboarding through to my first year and second year. I think there is always a ... It's important that, from a brand perspective, that there is also a consistent experience internally as well.
Mark Jones:
Yes.
Jo Osorio:
And I think I read the other day that a lot of the brand marketers are increasingly bringing communications. It's again that whole who owns communications, who owns brand. And I think you're starting to see much more of a tussle at the table is what I would say because of all of these externalities that you have to be very conscious about. You have to be able to understand whatever campaign or comms that goes out to internal, external audiences, you've got to think about, well, how's that going to land, but what could go wrong?
Mark Jones:
Right.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah, this internal memo, what's that going to look like?
Jo Osorio:
What's going to go wrong? And comms people are very good at that. And I think…
Mark Jones:
Risk management.
Jo Osorio:
... we're good at understanding the risks of a partnership. We're good at understanding brand safety and all of those things. So I think we've got to think about that in the workplace as well. It's not just one way communication, here's a town hall. You talked about transformation in the workforce and how do we bring employees on that journey to co-create the future? Because no one knows the answer to what the future of the workplace is going to be in 5, 10 years time. We're creating it right now. We know it's going to be AI driven, but what is the shape of our workforce going to be? We need people on the ground to be able to trust us to or trust employers to be able to co-create that future together.
So it's got to be an honesty as well about the realities of what you know and what you don't know is going to happen.
Mark Jones:
And just by the way, you're living this out because you're both in a new acting CEO role and chief of staff.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah.
Mark Jones:
So what are you learning?
Jo Osorio:
Well, we were talking earlier before the show. It's two personalities sometimes. In a chief of staff role, you deal with ambiguity and you have to sit comfortably with that. You deal with stakeholders, you deal with motivation, and you're trying to really understand the subtext to everything in a meeting. You're trying to understand what are the questions that are not asked. And so you're always observing.
And I mean four weeks in, so I'm not a professional CEO yet, but it's a very different ... When I put that hat on, it's very much, okay, how do I make a decision that is in line with the values and the principles of the leadership that I want to deliver? How do I make that decision quickly with clarity? And how do I be clear about what I expect of people? So whereas in chief of staff role, it's a black magic. Whereas in the CEO role it's clear, clarity, it's collaboration, it's all those things. So it's a real interesting thing that's going on in my head. So it's still trying to get into the rhythm of those two different personalities.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Paula, you wear those hats as well, don't you?
Paula Cowan:
Yes.
Mark Jones:
Yeah.
Paula Cowan:
I can identify with that. It's similar. Yeah, it's an interesting shift. I'm very glad I think having had a comms background to understand the power of communications internally and externally and how words land here and there. Yeah, it is a challenge I think to always be consistent. So that's what I'm finding. I think it's one of the interesting challenges in leadership.
And I think it comes back to trust a little bit, just watching where you might set strategy and then the world around you changes and where people expect you to hold to what you said you would do, whereas everything has changed and should you actually, in inverted commas, break a promise. And there's not a lot of tolerance for that because people don't like that experience. You said this and now it's this. Even if fundamentally someone might have started a war in the Middle East, for instance, and petrol prices have gone up and things have operationally changed for the organisation.
Mark Jones:
That's a great point.
Paula Cowan:
So I think your ability to tell that story and take people along with you might mitigate some of that, but I don't think it's going to be easy for leaders or marketers to hold firm when things really fundamentally change.
Jo Osorio:
And I think that's why communications is now at the C-suite table because they understand that there is so much complexity in the world that you can't message your way out of like a situation that is not in your control anymore. You have to be a good storyteller, you have to be honest, you have to be transparent. And I think in both the chief staff and CEO roles, it's like you have to say things that people may not be comfortable hearing.
Mark Jones:
And by the way, finally, it's been a while for comms people, right? This is like a decades long journey. There's a bit of catharsis there for our comms listeners. Now, I want to land a plane around what to do next and some practical outputs or outcomes for people. From the trust barometer perspective, what are the to-dos? What's the recommendations?
Jo Osorio:
Yeah. So one of the things we talk about is trust brokering and so…
Mark Jones:
What does that mean?
Jo Osorio:
Yeah. And it goes back to the point I was saying that when we do these presentations, people are like, "It's all doom and gloom. Where's the hope? What do we need to do? How do we climb our way out of this?" I think this is our reality, and I think doing what we used to do, which was top down messaging, engagement forums, la, la, la, put a badge on it, it doesn't work anymore. So it's a new way of working. And I think I see this in some of the work that I do with clients that I work on in the energy transition space. A lot of it is one-way communication. It's not good consultation, it's not meaningful listening. And I think comms professionals need to step up to the plate to be good listeners, to be truly engaged.
Mark Jones:
Are you saying they're not as good traditionally or?
Jo Osorio:
I think they're geared to be very focused on the message. Like we were talking earlier, I'm like, "What are my key messages? What I need to deliver? How do I need to appear on the screen or on the radio?" But are we truly listening to what people are saying? I don't think we are. And if we're listening, how do we replay that? How do we take on their feedback? And I think that is some of the skills that we, as leaders, as communications professionals need to hone in on. It's not to say that they're not good listeners, they're good PR people.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. There's a difference.
Jo Osorio:
They're trying to tell you a story and they want to persuade you. And so trust brokering for us is for those... and they want to persuade you.
Mark Jones:
Yeah.
Jo Osorio:
And so trust brokering for us is, for those institutions, they each play a role in bringing diverse voices together.
Mark Jones:
Yeah.
Jo Osorio:
So it's about how do you bring NGOs, community groups, special interest groups together to convene and discuss a spicy topic, a wicked topic. No one has the answer for big, wicked problems like energy transition. It requires collaboration. And I think if you don't trust people, if Australians are not trusting of people generally, then how do we progress? And I think we've got to be able to have common ground, conversation, and be able to agree to disagree.
Mark Jones:
Yep.
Jo Osorio:
We've got to stop persuading each other of each other's views, that my view is better than your view and you should disagree. I think we have to agree that, okay, we agree and we disagree, and move on.
Mark Jones:
Hooray for humans in the world of AI.
Jo Osorio:
That's my hope.
Mark Jones:
Right. There we go.
Jo Osorio:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Jones:
We're going to be okay. What are your thoughts, Paula, on the next?
Paula Cowan:
Yeah. I think what to do with the information of the trust barometer, I suppose, and the idea of influence, I think I find really interesting that where you've got your... If you have internal trust within your business and your organisation, that's a real asset. If you're able to tell your story really clearly to people and machines consistently and you've got, I guess, some verification for the claims that you make, you've got a reasonably strong position in terms of trust and reputation to influence. Much of what we as organisations are concerned about is well outside our control. But I think the stronger we are in terms of being able to demonstrate our social impact, environmental and governance too, sure, the more we're able to influence the things just outside our control. We're able to go credibly to people who can make decisions on our behalf or go credibly to partners and maybe broker some of those relationships that didn't exist to begin to address and tackle ideas bigger than ourselves or to influence the policy that directly affects us. Yeah. I think trust is a huge asset in that regard.
Jo Osorio:
It's a big leap of faith to put into people if you don't agree with them fundamentally.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're saying one thing but doing another…
Jo Osorio:
Do one thing.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do the other thing. Yeah. If you're telling me your employees are happy and your glass door tells me otherwise, you're not on a good footing.
Jo Osorio:
Exactly. Yeah.
Paula Cowan
I think a strong position to be in.
Mark Jones:
So I think that where this lands for me is CMOs in complex stakeholder environments having to make both strategic and practical decisions with very limited strategic visibility.
This points to a polarised society that we're quite familiar with. And one of the points too I wanted to pick up to sort of blend into this final closing bit is the difference between high income earners having higher trust in organisation and lower income earners having lower and whether we need to be starting to think about marketing comm strategies that actually go after those in a different way because at the moment there's broadly speaking a one size fits all to a lot of our approaches. So actually are we heading towards a world where more complexity, more nuance, highly targeted messaging is going to be the way forward or do we just stay with the comfortable and one size fits all? So what's your sense about where this is heading?
Jo Osorio:
I think people are focused on the now and I think we're in this attention economy where the communications that gets rewarded is emotional, it's outrage, like it's got to have like the click beta to that. And I think that's sad in a way, but I'm also hopeful that long form journalism still exists and you can sit and still read them, but that's not answering your question. So I do think that it is going to be more nuanced. There is still a role for the big campaigns and the big work that we see, but I feel like we've got to be able to understand and listen to what people are feeling and they're hearing.
Like people are worried about how to fill my car. How do I feed my kids? Will my children have a future? That's what we're needing to break through, not, "Oh, do this."
Mark Jones:
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that in the current climate you've really got to be nowist... I just made that up, but you've got to be...
Jo Osorio:
Nuance?
Mark Jones:
No, no. Now-ist. You've got to be in the present. You've got to be speaking to people who aren't thinking about the future, but they're looking at a... Because when you're in a crisis, everything comes in close to home. So to your point, right? So maybe it's back to that whole idea of being agile to borrow a term, right? What's going to work today and maybe that's the horizon we've got to think about.
Paula Cowan:
Look, I think if we're thinking about the now, I think if you think about when you are stressed yourself and somebody is trying to talk to you about a future, you can't go there mentally. You can't take on any more information. I think the acknowledging where people are at and reflecting back how people are feeling. I was very interested in your idea, are we listening and I think it's what populist parties do quite well is they acknowledge that you're hurting. They don't know what to do with it, but like you're feeling something negative. And you know when you're upset and someone acknowledges, "Oh, I can see you're upset," you're like, "Oh God, I don't have to communicate that to you anymore. You've got that."
Mark Jones:
Because you feel seen.
Paula Cowan:
Yeah. So I think maybe there's a role for marketers and communicators to acknowledge this current situation, but there is an expectation I think from the public that things don't stay like that. So yes, acknowledge and then paint a picture of a future that everybody is part of. So can I see myself as part of this vision that you're casting as a brand for... Can I see myself in that car or can I see myself going to that university with the British brands we've talked about? But do you understand where I am now? So I think there's a good opportunity for marketers and communicators to do some good research and understand where are people at, how are they feeling now? What do they want to be acknowledged and then what kind of future do they want to be part of? And I think if you take it from a personal perspective, you can kind of understand that mindset and, okay, how do I apply that then to potential audiences? Yeah.
Mark Jones:
I think that's a great spot to end.
Paula Cowan:
Okay.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Jo, Paula, thank you so much for joining us from the CMO show.
Jo Osorio:
Thank you.
Paula Cowan:
Thank you Mark.
Mark Jones:
One of the things that stands out to me is actually a comment Paula made around bringing people into the room and that's something that we do intentionally at Impact Institute with the Disability Expo programme as one example. You got to bring the participants or the people with experience into the decision making, not just do things for people. And there's a really great insight there which applies to marketers and commerce people because we need to not just rely on research, but we actually need to rely on experience as well and the wisdom that comes from people with lived experience as part of the decision making, not just as part of the research set. So that's one of my takeaways. Beautiful to know your reflections on what I think is a really fascinating conversation. So that's it for this episode of the CMO Show. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time.