Snapchat on Gen Z’s marketing revolution
How are Gen Z reshaping the media landscape and what does it mean for brand strategy?
According to Snap ANZ Managing Director Ryan Ferguson and brand strategist Eugene Healy, the answer goes beyond the generational and into the architectural. In this episode of The CMO Show, they unpack how Gen Z’s digital fluency, cultural remixing, and preference for closed networks are rewriting the rules of brand engagement.
Snapchat’s evolution from ephemeral messaging app to social infrastructure reveals a deeper truth: brands no longer have an automatic right to be in the conversation. In closed networks, presence must be earned through relevance, utility, and respect.
From top-down to bottom-up
The traditional campaign model, one big idea pushed out across every channel, is being replaced by a bottom-up approach. Gen Z aren’t passive consumers; they’re active remixers. They parody, reinterpret, and recontextualise brand messages in real time. “Everything is a big joke right now,” said Eugene. “And the only way to win is to be in on it... Not the butt of it.” This shift demands agility. Brands must learn to test, iterate, and scale what works, often in collaboration with creators who understand the cultural nuances of their communities.
The paradox of authenticity
In a media landscape saturated with performance, the more a brand tries to appear authentic, the more it risks coming off as fake. Eugene calls this the “authenticity mirage”, a trap where brands mimic the tone of chronically online teens without strategic intent. Instead, brands must embrace their identity, show up with purpose, and communicate with clarity, even if that means acknowledging the distance between brand and audience.
Remix culture and creator strategy
Content creators aren’t just influencers, they’re cultural translators. They help brands test messaging, build relevance, and scale engagement. In a decentralised media environment, creators offer a cost-effective way to navigate fragmentation. From AR filters to parody ads, the most successful brands are those willing to let go of control and lean into play.
The future of marketing is playful, decentralised, and human
Snapchat’s research shows Gen Z use digital platforms to connect with real-life friends, not just scroll algorithmic feeds. This behavioural shift demands a new kind of brand presence, one that’s fluid, participatory, and values-led. “Stay true to your brand’s values, match them to the platform, and act accordingly,” said Ryan. In a world of ephemeral media and remix culture, the marketer’s role is no longer to dictate meaning, but to facilitate it.
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This episode of The CMO Show was brought to you by host Mark Jones, producers Kate Zadel and Kirsten Bables and audio engineers Ed Cheng and Daniel Marr. This is an edited excerpt of the podcast transcript.
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Mark Jones
In marketing, it's fair to say we have a top-down approach. We have this big campaign and then we put it out through all the channels. But what if in this world of fragmented digital media, we need to turn the whole thing around and go bottom-up?
Hello, welcome back to the CMO show. Mark Jones is my name, and this is a podcast brought to you by Impact Institute in partnership with our friends at Adobe. Now today I am recording a conversation right here in Snapchat, in fact, at Snap's offices in Sydney. Now the question we're going to talk about today is of course thinking about Gen Z, but I'm also interested in how we think about media and the mindsets that we have around strategy, around execution, and basically the work that we do every day. You see this top-down idea is quite classic, right? It's the central campaign pillar and we just push it out through all these different channels.
One of the interesting things about how Snapchat and other private messaging platforms are changing is that it really turns out on its head, we need to be bottom-up in the way that we think about it. We need to be deeply integrated into these communities so that our brands don't come off looking like, I don't know, like an old guy, for example. So let's have a listen to two people. Ryan Ferguson is the managing director at Snap in Australia and New Zealand and Eugene Healey, who is a brand strategy consultant who's been doing some work with Snap recently.
All right, thank you both for joining me. So great to have two people on the show today. Now I'm going to start with you, Ryan. Let's start in the forest before we get down into the trees and the weeds.
Ryan Ferguson
Yes.
Mark Jones
So I've been wanting to tell you this story actually. So my 16th year old had a party, 16th birthday party. He invited 50 people, and I'm still recovering, but he showed me his Snap account, right?
Ryan Ferguson
Yes.
Mark Jones
And the Snap Maps, and it was just a sea of little avatars. Now the thing about that is it started attracting his other friends, because where's the party on Saturday night, right?
Ryan Ferguson
Yeah.
Mark Jones
The point is this has become part of the social fabric, not just a comms platform. Now, what are the implications of that and what are you learning as you think about the connections between that and the way brands start to think about what is? I think for a lot like a very foreign dynamic.
Ryan Ferguson
It is. It really is. And I think one of the things that Eugene and I will talk a lot around is, A, some research coming from third parties, but also some of the research that we've done in particular with crowd DNA, which really points to the fact that Gen Z, who obviously extend from 13 up to 28 to 30 years old, generate a lot of their personas online and they're really communicating it and trying to actually engage with people they know in real life. And I think I love the power of this story because we're not talking about social media where they're sitting down and actually just going through an algorithmic feed. They were trying to engage with their real mates. They're trying to actually connect with each other and create those moments. And that is what the power of Snapchat has actually been known for. And it was obviously built to be slightly different to normal social media and really find that moment of engagement. So it's fantastic to see.
Mark Jones
Eugene, there's a bit of a trick to this though, and I don't know how many of the listeners understand the value of the private messaging component. There's a bit of a challenge there when it comes to brands. How do you work with this audience when there's sort of this ephemeral feeling to the community?
Eugene Healey
It's an interesting question. I think we probably have to go back a step, which is to talk about how it's different from what we have understood about social media beforehand. Social media, the old social media, we're talking 2008, 2009, 2010. It was still a public network in that the idea of social media was at the town square. That was what Facebook was modelled on. In a way, that's what Instagram was modelled on in the old days as well. We put everything out there and we shared everything in public. I remember when I first put my Facebook profile out there before Facebook Messenger was out, and you would leave messages publicly on other people's profiles. That's the old network, and we're seeing people tending to post less and less these days on the public internet for a variety of reasons. What we have with Snapchat is a closed network social media platform in which you don't have access from the outside.
So the thing about the public internet that everyone has been from the beginning coded to believe is advertising is the cost of accessing the platform because the platform is free. So we believe that brands have an implicit right to be there, and there's a certain level of spectacle that goes along with that brands being impossible to ignore, et cetera. But when you show up in a closed network like a Discord or a Snapchat as well, brands don't implicitly have the right to be in those conversations.
And when you want to get into those conversations, you have to behave differently. I would say, the metaphor that I use is the public internet's like a coliseum. When the brand is there in the middle of the coliseum, you're trying to be impossible to ignore. Whereas close networks are more like libraries. They're places of quiet introspection and chosen focus. And when people raise their voices, they have to do so with purpose, I think. And that's what brands effectively have to learn when they want to advertise on these social platforms.
Mark Jones
It raises so many questions because how do you do that? And how do you do it well? How do you not be sort of the geeky, awkward teenager that turns up at my son's party because he saw it on Snap Maps as an example, and brands have really been struggling with this. I think they have. So what's the approach here? And just to add to that a little bit, the core issue I think for CMOs and marketers is when does it go from being an optional extra to something we have to do?
Ryan Ferguson
Well, I think we're already there. I think most CMOs intrinsically understand that for a long time now, we've been focused on reach and frequency, vertical video, and essentially very similar ad formats and narratives across all platforms, whether that has been news-based media right through to social media. Where Snapchat is focused now is really trying to get to the zeitgeist of that moment of how do you generate a conversation between a user, a consumer, and a brand. And to Eugene's point in a way that's similar to having a conversation in a library, it needs to be a lot more tailored. It needs to be a lot more in tune with what the user's doing at that moment. And I think it's getting harder and harder to do because as users shy away from the public internet and try and find quieter corners, libraries, quieter corners of communities, that's where places like Snapchat really come into their own.
Mark Jones
Eugene, how do you not turn up like a daggy old dad to personify myself into this story? How do you be the brand that actually feels like it has a right to be there? Because there's got to be lots of brands getting this wrong.
Eugene Healey
I think for me, there are a couple of key principles within this. The first is, as I said, it's about integration rather than interruption. So learning to be a canvas for the user experience rather than trying to overwhelm. And I would say it's almost learning to be a background member of the cast rather than trying to be the main character. A good example of this is how brands often show up on Snap with the AR filters effectively. So when you think about a brand showing up with the sponsored AR filter, what that is open sourcing the brand assets in a way and handing them over to the user to make their own meaning and overlaying that over the top rather than just, I would say the opposite to me, the key faux pas is the brand showing up, trying to pretend to be like another user.
You say it's like the dad showing up for me. The absolute worst thing you can do is try to show up like you are just another person in the group chat and say, "Hey, besties, well, what's going on this week? How are we feeling?" I think there really needs to be an understanding the user, okay, if you're going to be there, you actually have to show up as a brand, not a person to acknowledge that there is going to be a little bit of distance between you and them. And whenever you are actually in those environments, you are finding a way to add value. I think this is another good example of I think gaming environments as well.
We are going beyond Snapchat here, but when we're going into, let's say, a private server on a Roblox or a Discord or something like that, the brand should not be showing up as a billboard ad. But a lot of the stuff that is done on Fortnite where the assets or something like fashion famous too, where the assets themselves are actually planted into the game and the user has the opportunity to style themselves with it, that's integrating yourself into the user experience rather than overlaying yourself over the top.
Mark Jones
Okay. There's two things I'm hearing. One is that you can bring messages that you are using in different campaigns into these environments, but you can also let people come in and effectively muck around with your brand image.
Ryan Ferguson
And I think it's a very uncomfortable space for marketers to get their heads around. And I think there's been some great discussion of recent around advice from very large FMCG or CPG businesses starting to understand that they need to offload some of their brand equity into the hands of potentially users or creators.
Mark Jones
Eugene, I want you to comment on that actually, because I printed out the article you wrote for The Guardian where there's a cracking, there's a cracking line in here sort of talking about this idea of the paradox of big brands trying to play in these spaces. And your comment up the front was that it can quite often be a mirage in terms of being authentic. The more we try to prove we're authentic online, the more we seem to accelerate its disappearance. And then you went on to say that brands, and I'm not putting the finger here necessarily at Snap, but in terms of how brands think about getting involved in these different platforms, the irony is that multinationals with billions of dollars in market capitalization are pretending to be jaded teenagers, and yet here we are. So there's this big brand juxtaposed against kids who really don't care. How do you get that right? Because I know this is so niche and nuanced. Eugene, what do you say to brands that sort of step into this space?
Eugene Healey
Okay, so the first thing, this tone of voice, the sardonic, the self-aware, the fourth wall breaking, the chronically online teenager, what we have to recognise is this was not always the category voice, the social media manager voice that shows up on these big brand social platforms. It wasn't always this way. One, it came from the Wendy's Twitter account back in 2016, but it also came from Ryanair. That's where it originally came from. And the interesting thing about the Ryanair Twitter account, which what it did was it recognised brands are starting to bleed further and further into the feed. It's not just top down anymore. We can't just broadcast messages out into culture, and the way that we are going to do that is we are going to show up like every other user. And that was a very novel tactic at the time.
Eugene Healey
So yeah, so Ryanair obviously a budget airline carrier in the UK. What it would do is people would complain about how bad Ryanair was on Twitter, and then Ryanair would retweet and it would roast them in the tweets. So there was a really famous example where someone paid for a window seat and the window seat was literally, the window was that big. And they said, "Hey, Ryanair, where's my window?" And the Ryanair Twitter account retweeted with a red circle around that tiny little window, and it got, I don't know, back then it got like 20 million impressions or something ridiculous. And I spoke to Michael Corcoran, who was the person who was the head of social at that time. And one of the things that he impressed upon entire audience actually, he said, "Yeah, but that tone of voice was designed for a very specific purpose, which is we were trying to reduce millennials sky-high expectations of Ryanair travel given that they were paying a cup of coffee for the flight."
Mark Jones
Got it.
Eugene Healey
So the whole purpose of showing up as a user and with that particular tone of voice was a strategy to deliver one very specific business outcome. And it got a lot of engagement, but it accomplished that purpose. Now, what we have, as is so common, with the world of branding, we have an instance where other brands see wow, that gets engagement and they don't recognise that the engagement actually serves a purpose. And so they copy the form, but they don't copy the underlying meaning. And that's what I think is the real problem.
Mark Jones
Or the idea.
Eugene Healey
Exactly. Or the idea. And so I think we ask, okay, what do brands need to do? Some strategy would be nice. What are the actual associations that you are trying to build? What's the comms objective that underlies this particular way that you show up on social media? And then how does that influence the tone of voice? There may be some instances where Michael called it the Ryan Reynolds tone of voice made sense, but for the vast majority of people, it doesn't actually make sense if you just show up like a 16-year-old who's just got finish his shift flipping burger patties.
Mark Jones
So obviously you're not just letting your social medias have at it and make up the tone of voice and the strategy on the fly just because they're Gen Z and they get it right. Which by the way, these are adults we're talking about now as opposed to the next generation below them, not quite right.
Ryan Ferguson
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, if you signed up to a Snapchat account when it first opened, you would've been 13, 14. You are now 27, 28 years old. So they're economically important as well. So I think, and Eugene talks about this a lot, we sort of put a label on this demographic, Gen Z as people that moan and groan about avocado on their toast and et cetera, et cetera. But they are a economic force field. They're worth $12 trillion globally. Look around your office, look around my office. In five years time, there'll be 30% of our workforce.
Mark Jones
So it does raise a good question, which is how do you keep them once they tip over into, I'm going to call it older adulthood or the middle ages, you're going to lose them at some point, right?
Ryan Ferguson
No, I would disagree with that. I think from our perspective, what's really interesting is you look at our community numbers globally, they continue to grow. One of the things that we do-
Mark Jones
But are they staying is the question?
Ryan Ferguson
Yes.
Mark Jones
I mean, there might be new people coming in.
Ryan Ferguson
So we see the average tenure is five year plus. So once they're in, they stay for at least five years. So it's a really interesting ecosystem. And the reason they're doing that is they're staying connected to their best mates. So your son, for example, will likely be on that platform for some years to come because it's a place where he connects with his best mates. I think that's an important one that we need to understand from a advertising perspective, a strategy perspective. It's like how do you create a conversation with these people with values and authenticity over a long period of time?
Mark Jones
Eugene, you've seen platforms evolve over the years. What's your take on the stickiness thing? I think brands are thinking about loyalty and how do they, I guess, maintain the investment they've put into a lot of these campaigns?
Eugene Healey
Look, I think obviously Snap will have to talk about that from a product perspective. So how we actually came into contact with one another was that I delivered a keynote at Snapchat's EMEA conference over in Soho Farmhouse outside of London, and I was there obviously ingesting a lot of Snap messaging. You're right, because before that I was like, "It's just the kids app, man." And I wasn't really thinking about it because it's closed network, so you literally don't hear as much about it because it's people communicating with one another rather than performing for the public internet.
And I thought learning about Snap through that process, one of the first things that I learned was while yes, it is a platform for a lot of young people, one of the most significant comms groups, user groups for Snapchat, sorry, is families. So there's a Snapchat chat group that is effectively the parents, sometimes the grandparents, the kids as well. And I can't remember who I said when we were at one of our dinners, Ryan, where someone said, "Snap is the only way I can convince my kids to talk to me." So I think is...
Ryan Ferguson
I've got a lot of those stories.
Eugene Healey
They won't respond to WhatsApp, they won't respond to this, they don't want to respond to any message that contains a trace. And I think we were talking about a lot of a Snap's appeal is in ephemerality. I always talk about the different social platforms, the role they play, and I think the role for Snapchat is the ephemerality is the advantage, the fact that nothing is remembered, the fact that nothing exists and nothing sticks is why people continue to stay on it. And I think that people will continue to stay on the platform for as long as they feel the need to have a space in their life where they're not performing to have a space in their life where they can effectively just, okay, I can fire off this message and it's going to be hard for it to be quoted at some point in the future.
Mark Jones
So the lesson is stay true to your roots if you're a social platform of any type and maintain that loyalty. Now, I am coming at this with a pretty strong questioning mindset because CMOs have really, in my view, kind of seen it as I said, one of the options, but not an essential option for this group when we start thinking about how they're going to move forward. The long-standing campaign mindset is you've got a creative platform and then you spin off all of the different assets across all of these different platforms. It's sort of a version of the right ones run everywhere.
Ryan Ferguson
Copy paste.
Mark Jones
Copy paste. Yes. And I think the big question is to what degree are you going to have to tailor it so deeply for this community? And this is what I think is the heart of how Gen Z is transforming the way we think as marketers. So I'm really keen to explore that. And just in very practical terms, is it going to cost me more money to tailor my campaigns for this audience? What degree of thinking and strategy is involved? If it starts to feel too hard, intrinsically it becomes an issue, or maybe it's just like we actually just have to do a campaign in Snapchat. And so these are the big chunky levers that a lot of marketers are thinking about.
Ryan Ferguson
And I empathise with CMOs. I mean, it's so complex. The truth is we obviously talk to marketers all the time and they're at media agencies around briefs and campaigns, and it could be seasonality, it could be like an annual one. But we're also talking to brands around how they can be smart with our level of insights around Gen Z and develop new products. And I'll give you a really good example. If you think about the dating world, it's starting to become very complex. People are, to Eugene's point, are shying away from the open internet. Now they're still using dating apps, but they're also trying to create spaces for them to go and do things in real life, experiences. And you take Tinder is a good example. Just recently they launched a feature around double dating, which was a very smart idea. People don't necessarily always want to turn up to a blind date. Maybe it's safer to go with a mate. And that works really well with our message around community connection, friendships.
And so we worked with them to find a very good UGC creator that actually developed a set of content that we then sent out to the audience and got great uptake from. Now that was not going to cost them drastically anymore money. It wasn't outside of the scope of the brief, it was just they had to make sure that they were doing smart things on each platform to get the cut through.
Mark Jones
Okay. So it's not so much about selling data, but about how to use different content creators.
Ryan Ferguson
How do you use communities and the skillsets of each platform. I think to your point you just mentioned around our social network platforms need to stay to their core, and I think that's really, really key. Stay to the core of the values of your brand, match that with the platform and act accordingly.
Mark Jones
Eugene, what's the take here with content creators? I've been deeply fascinated in this world. Keep in mind I'm an ex-journalist, so it's taken me a little while to accept them if I'm honest. They're not real journalists. Well, they're not actually journalists, they're content creators and they're building a community, but they have become over time really strategic for a lot of brands. So Ryan's just touched on an example there where it's actually been working with an influencer or a content creator. I think you're a content creator yourself, right?
Eugene Healey
I am, yes.
Mark Jones
So what's your take on the best way to approach that?
Eugene Healey
Look, I think the way that we talk about content creators I think is often a little bit simplistic. Like the authenticity word comes up a lot. Yeah. These people have a way to authentically connect the communities. I think content creators, influencers, etc, whatever you want to call them, they are a reflection of a audience and cultural and media fragmentation. And the fact that it is harder to reach the audience than ever before.
The fact is that we lived in the last 50 to 100 years were a relative aberration in terms of advertising and media culture. We lived in a monocultural media environment in which we had three TV stations that like 70% of the population watched. And media was so centralised in those environments. You could afford to build brands by saying, "Okay, we're going to go to the ad agency, they're going to go do six months to do a creative concept. We're going to run a bunch of artificial testing, etc." And it's all going to come down to one ad that then gets, as you said, that then gets fragmented and cut down for all of these other platforms. The reality is now the audience is so decentralised, they're across so many channels, there's so much creative volume that is demanded as well. Influencers are a part of that effectively.
What I would say is part of this conversation to go to this idea of top-down versus bottom up is something that I've been talking a lot about recently. Brands should be thinking about how they can use that to their advantage to make their processes more cost-effective and efficient. So what we understand is that we live in this kind of remix culture right now where all of these, your brand is only one path to the market. And these consumers, they're remixing, they're talking about the brands in different ways, use that. So instead of taking six months to come to a brand campaign, test messaging out in market using creators using performance marketing, etc. See what actually gets out there and the messages that do well, why don't you scale them up into more significant creator campaigns? Why don't you start to scale them up into more like actual briefing packs?
Why don't you start to do more owned media? Why don't you start to actually put paid media behind that? And then once you found the messages that really stick, that already have the social proof, you can scale that up into the aggregate brand campaign message. So you're using the fact that messaging is so decentralised to your advantage and you're actually getting to test things in real time, rather than having to basically put all of your eggs in one basket. And that's what happens with brand campaigns, right? Three to six months down the line when you've created a campaign, there's a sunk cost and this thing has to go out to market and we just have to hope it does well. I think it's a really good opportunity, if nothing else, to reduce the hoping and praying element of brand building.
Mark Jones
So remix thing is interesting to me, and we've sort of touched on that a bit before in this conversation, but it ties into the idea of iterating on the fly and being a lot more creative and letting people play with your brand, which is quite scary for a lot of brands still.
Ryan Ferguson
I love that thought process around having fun. I think a lot of brands need to embrace it and actually look for tools to do it. And I came across one that actually used a bit of Snapchat tech the other day, but it wasn't a paid media execution on our platform, but it was at the Brisbane Broncos and they were using the Snap camera AR kit on the big screen, and they actually did a tie-up with Mother Energy Drinks and the lens was essentially giving everyone a beautiful mullet and they called it the mother mullet, but it was this notion of the camera going around the field and letting people play with their brand in a fun way and actually engaged with it. And I just thought it was a fantastic moment where whoever the brand market or the CMO on Mother was excellent job in terms of using tech and having some fun and letting go.
Mark Jones
Eugene, what's your take on that? And I'm sort of thinking back to the paradox. You've called out a couple of times around people trying too hard, and particularly the kids.
Eugene Healey
Yeah, look, I mean, what I want to say is whether it's about trying too hard or taking it too seriously, I think it's more that the old rigid model of brand guidelines and the brand dictating the brand must show up in this context made sense when we had a relatively centralised media environment. But now media is so decentralised and so chaotic and mediated as well. Now, I think one thing that is important to recognise when we think about brand campaigns or the way that comms happens on social, when you have a phone that is this close to your face and you're absorbing messages, you are not looking for high fidelity, high fidelity, high fidelity.
You don't want cinematic campaigns delivered to you every 15 seconds. You want a variety of content, some of which may be a good example like that that is what the luxury brands do so well, like Loewe and Jacquemus, et cetera. Some of it's just a person talking into a camera. Sometimes it is just a funny mullet as well, like fun activation of technology. Sometimes it is someone walking down the street and tripping and doing something funny and silly. And I think the brands that are doing well right now are the brands that really understand this and they understand that we live in this remixed culture.
You think about what Telstra did so well when they saw the silly walk campaign recently and how people were taking that into their own context and making fun of it and parodying the brand. The old world would've been, oh, we need to go into crisis management. People are making fun of us. Instead, they went and they actually made that into an ad. They took all of that content that had been made and they understood the only way to... Everything is a big joke right now, and the only way to win is to be in on it rather than be the but of it.
Mark Jones
Yeah, it was a very clever response I got to say. Your advice then to CMOs who have to sell in some of these ideas to, quite frankly, it'll be boards and management teams that don't get it. So there's some interesting heavy lifting to be done to really make these sorts of ideas fly. What's your take?
Ryan Ferguson
Look, if I was to think about a principle, it would be to truly understand your values and match those values to the channel and then ultimately the placements and don't be so rigid.
Mark Jones
What's your take, Eugene?
Eugene Healey
I think the most important thing to almost for the CMOs to explain is this is where media is at these days. We can't just buy and make 30-second TV ads and expect that everyone's going to see them. We know that broadcast television is in structural decline, so it's almost the facts don't care about your feelings. This is the future of what media looks like and we need to be native to what that media looks like, and we can get started at any time, and the barrier to entry is low and we should just give it a go.
Mark Jones
Bravery comes to mind. We used to use that in sort of big brand advertising campaign ideas, but it actually feels like it's far more relevant in this context.
Ryan Ferguson
Oh, massively. Test and learn I think to Eugene's point. Start small, think about your values and match those up.
Mark Jones
Well, Ryan and Eugene, thank you so much for joining us on the CMO show. Fascinating conversation, and it'll be interesting to watch how this whole space evolves and marketers get their heads around this, and maybe it comes down to the influencers and the content producers and the content creators that they employ from here and in.
Ryan Ferguson
Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Eugene.
Eugene Healey
Thank you. Yeah, the content creators shall inherit the world.
Mark Jones
Wow.
Ryan Ferguson
On Snapchat.
Mark Jones
Okay, I think I better get back on Snapchat.
Mark Jones
Well, I hope you enjoyed the interview. One of the things that I'm reflecting on is how CMOs need to make sure they really understand the community at a very, very detailed level. It's quite a challenge too when you think about all the channels that are out there, but how do we hold our brand in a looser, more fun sense, which is sort of the message from Snap and how do we get to become part of these conversations? It feels like quite a delicate balance, but as we know in all forms of media, the audience will tell you what they want. And so we really do have to follow the conversation and that is going to be an ongoing challenge. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the CMO Show. We'll see you next time.