Katherine Raskob on the transition from CMO to CEO
Katherine Raskob, CEO at the Fundraising Institute of Australia, sits down with host Mark Jones to discuss making the move from CMO to CEO.
CMO to CEO stories are rare.
In fact, CMO Australia’s 2019 CMO50 list revealed that based on five years of Australian CMO data, only 11 individuals have made the transition to a CEO role.
But you know what they say, the road less travelled often affords a better story to tell.
Katherine Raskob, CEO at the Fundraising Institute of Australia (FIA), and former CMO at ADMA, has made the transition from leading the marketing function, to leading an entire organisation.
She believes that while CMOs have not traditionally been ‘first in line’ for assuming the CEO role, they are well-positioned to navigate brands through disruption and drive innovation.
“Marketing is a really good fit for a CEO role, given the skill set that marketers hold, the communication, the story, painting a vision,” says Katherine.
“We're seeing CMOs be an incredible integral part of most organisations. So that's a movement and a change that's happened that I think is really, really beneficial and I think paints a good story about why marketers can be in a leadership position.”
Katherine’s advice for marketers who are looking to take the leap is to always be open to taking on new projects and challenges outside of the marketing function.
“I took on the entire digital transformation project that ADMA was undergoing… as well as the membership functions… additional responsibilities and projects that weren't sitting squarely in the marketing space. I really credit that experience with putting me in very good stead for the CEO role at FIA.”
Equally important is to have your marketing experience and perspective recognised by the C-suite. Katherine says that a CMO must learn how to have more strategic conversations with the CEO, to gain influence and drive growth.
“Get a seat at the leadership table. Make sure that your marketing experience is recognised… at a senior level of the executive team,” says Katherine.
“[You’ve got to think about] how organisations are governed and managed and run, as having a view from a board director's position is really helpful when you want to get into the CEO role.”
Check out this episode of The CMO Show to discover more of Katherine’s tips for levelling up in your marketing leadership journey.Looking for more career growth insights? If you are a CMO hoping to get the CEO to sign off your crazy marketing idea, check out our episode with Your CEO Mentor co-founder, Martin Moore.
Resources
You might also like…
- Martin Moore on getting the CEO to sign off your crazy marketing idea
- Louise Cummins on marketing, innovation & storytelling at H&R Block
- Alexander Meyer on forming emotional connections through creativity
####
The CMO Show production team
Producers – Charlotte Goodwin & Stephanie Woo
Audio Engineers – Tom Henderson & Daniel Marr
Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au.
####
Transcript:
Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Katherine Raskob
Mark Jones:
According to Gartner, growth is the number 1 priority for CEOs. A survey published late last year, the 2019 CEO and Senior Business Executive survey, said they’re looking for the CMO to drive business from a customer experience perspective. If the marketing leader of an organisation is not innovation-focused and constantly listening to customers, the organisation will struggle to keep up in a competitive market. So, how can marketers use their skills and influence to lead business transformation efforts, and drive growth?
Mark Jones:
Hello friends! Mark Jones here. It’s great to have you with us again on The CMO Show. My guest today is Katherine Raskob, she’s the CEO at the Fundraising Institute of Australia, and prior to her current role was the CMO at ADMA. Now we had a great conversation about her journey from CMO to CEO, and the importance of vision, collaboration and customer focus as a marketer. So let’s go to my conversation with Katherine.
Mark Jones:
Katherine Raskob. She is the CEO at Fundraising Institute of Australia. Thanks for joining us.
Katherine Raskob:
My pleasure, Mark.
Mark Jones:
Now, first up. We want to know a little bit about the Fundraising Institute of Australia, because it's a big time for charities and not-for-profits this year. There's a lot of change going on, what's it like out there?
Katherine Raskob:
Well, it is a very challenging time for Australia and the rest of the world. I think from an FIA perspective we're really delighted with the way that Australians have responded to so many needs and causes in Australia. And this really started last year with droughts and fires and floods. I think we've had everything in Australia even before the pandemic hit. So what amazes me is the continued generosity of Australians to dig deep into their pockets and give even when they're potentially in need themselves. And we do see that worldwide Australia ranks among the top countries for generosity. So we're really lucky that we're part of a generous nation. And so from that perspective I am hopeful that the rest of the year and into next year we'll continue in a positive way, but it will be challenging I think for fundraising organisations and for charities who rely on fundraising income in the coming years.
Mark Jones:
Interesting, just a point of news recently. The donation dollar came out. I think for many people who saw that news would have kind of seen that as a reminder, right? This kind of sense of awareness that “don't forget, while we're so inwardly focused on protecting our families and our communities, as we should, there's still a lot of people that need help.”
Katherine Raskob:
That's right. What a great idea. I think that's really terrific that they came up with that idea. Notwithstanding, I know it's taken a bit of time to develop and to get to market. But I do love the way that a coin or something simple can remind us that there are still people in need and that it doesn't actually take very much. If each one of us just gave that $1, what an incredible difference it would make. So I really love the creativity of that idea, the execution. And I really hope that in the future it will be a very successful and a good reminder for people to continue to give.
Mark Jones:
Now, you are a rare breed among marketers, who's gone from the CMO role to the CEO role. You used to work at ADMA and back in the days, working with Jodie Sangster so I'm interested to explore your experience, take us back to the ADMA days and the sort of work you were doing then?
Katherine Raskob:
Well, I spent three years at ADMA and I worked with Jodie very closely and she is absolutely awesome as a CEO and as a manager. And one of the things that Jodie and I talked about before I started at ADMA was really helping her to take a leadership role in the organisation. And what she really understood as well is that marketers have an incredible set of skills, which include communication skills to be able to advance business. I think that's an area where increasingly organisations will look to marketers who have really top notch communication skills. And this is not just in the writing space, because obviously a lot of marketers are very good writers, but also in the verbal communication space. And being able to paint a picture of a strategy or a vision and be able to clearly articulate that and bring the team along with you I think is a really strong skill of marketers.
Katherine Raskob:
During the three years that I worked with her and at ADMA, I did step up to sort of a deputy role. It was really about taking on lots of areas of the business, not just in the very narrow focus of marketing. And so while I was there, I took on the entire digital transformation project that ADMA was undergoing, which was a huge project and task to try and get sort of connected up systems to be able to talk to members, as well as I took on membership functions, Jodie gave me all those opportunities to do that and to take additional responsibility and projects that maybe weren't sitting squarely in the marketing space. And I really credit that experience with putting me in very good stead for the CEO role at FIA.
Mark Jones:
It sounds like there's two things if I'm to sort of reflect what I'm hearing, one is you had a great mentor, which is fantastic. Secondly, you strike me as someone who's quite ambitious. This was a kind of a goal. Were you driving this as sort of saying, "Jodie, hey, this is where I want to go."
Katherine Raskob:
Yeah, absolutely. So I have been a marketer for more than 20 years, and what I could see in my marketing career was I guess a real love of a passion for leading and for setting the agenda. And as I said earlier, painting the vision and carrying a team along with that. And while I have had amazing marketing leadership roles, and in marketing organisations, I always had my sight set on one day leading the entire organisation, not just the marketing function. And I think interviewing for that role at ADMA those years ago really gave me a clear picture that that was something that I could absolutely aspire to, not in the distant future, but in the more near future. And having someone like Jodie to be able to work with to get there was really the sort of final ingredient, I guess, for success.
Mark Jones:
Yeah, that's great. And what would you say for other people who may be seeing themselves in a similar sort of position, what would you say to people who are looking to replicate what you've done?
Katherine Raskob:
Yeah, there are a couple of things. One is, obviously marketing is a really good fit as I've said, for a CEO role, given the skillset that marketers hold, the communication, the story, painting a vision. I think that's really important. I think having a seat at the table is increasingly common for marketers. Back in the early days I don't think a lot of CMOs would have sat at the leadership table. They may have been relegated one level below. And I think increasingly we're seeing CMOs be an incredible integral part of most organisations. So that's a movement and a change that's happened that I think is really, really beneficial and I think paints a good story about why marketers can be in a leadership position.
Katherine Raskob:
Rather than say, "No, that's not in my area or I'm too busy," and marketers are incredibly busy, right? but I think constantly saying, "Yep, I can do that. Yes, I can do that." I always volunteered to do that and never sort of said no to any opportunity. Those things are important. I do have advanced skills in marketing as well. I did an MBA later in my career, and I think having some well-rounded management skills like an MBA or that sort of qualifications I think is really important.
Katherine Raskob:
Being able to show those and to compliment the CEO in a noncompetitive way I think is also really important. And I think that mentoring is really quite critical. And then I think board experience is really, really helpful for you to understand.
Katherine Raskob:
A high level helicopter view of the organisation, not just the role that you play as a leader in the organisation or as a functional leader, even in marketing. But really thinking about from a governance perspective, how does the operation all fit together and work together? And I think those are really good skills to have as well if you were sort of keen to step up into a CEO role.
Mark Jones:
That's great. That's really good to hear. And what's your advice for either finding the right mentor or once you've found one to get that relationship working well?
Katherine Raskob:
I think most of the managers I've had in the last couple of years have actually become my mentors, even though it's a bit challenging sometimes to think of your boss or your manager as a mentor. But there have been incredible women who are really good at sharing their knowledge and also making space for somebody up and coming. So finding one can be challenging. And what I also know is that it takes a lot of work. So I think often there's this view that the mentor is doing all the stuff for you and you just soak it all up, but actually you have to be really clear, what are your goals? What are you trying to achieve? What is it you want to get from this person, from this mentor and being really, really clear about that with yourself and with your mentor. Otherwise I think it's just a matter of people will just hang out and have coffee and chat and do that kind of stuff when you don't actually really get the benefit of the mentoring experience.
Mark Jones:
I should ask too obviously, to women in a mentoring relationship and obviously there's a broader narrative going on in terms of, you mentioned board and CEOs and C-suite, in terms of making sure we have plenty of opportunities for women in that. What are your views on maybe how to approach that? What's changed, what's not changed?
Katherine Raskob:
Well, certainly the more, the better. I think we're a very diverse country. So having diversity, not only in gender, but also in cultural and other areas is really critical. And I hope that Australia will continue to move in that direction. I think embracing experiences of all backgrounds and skillsets is quite good. I know when I came to Australia 20 years ago, there was somewhat of a narrow view, which is, "Oh, you don't have experience in the Australian context, therefore I don't think I'm going to hire you because I need this very narrow set of experiences." And I think Australia has grown a bit in that way where we're starting to value experiences from outside our own sphere, which I think is really important as well. I think this has been written about as well, but this idea that potentially women feel that they're reticent in coming forward.
Katherine Raskob:
And if it was a man, potentially just go for it, just, "I'll just give it a try and go for it," whereas potentially a female might say, "Oh, I'm not sure I'm qualified," and sort of think it over in her brain for a while. And I hope that we can break that down as well, because I think everyone should have confidence to give it a go. And there's that expression about you miss a 100% of the shots that you don't take, and I think that's really important for women and for everyone.
Mark Jones:
Can you just tell me about what does it take to really change that? Is it a personal mindset type thing or are you saying there's like a broader conditioning that's going on? Women get a lot of messages externally to kind of discourage that kind of ambition. Can you help me understand probably the what's changed there or isn't changing?
Katherine Raskob:
Yeah, I think there have been changes. I'm not exactly sure how and when they happen, but I do know that when I did come to Australia 20 years ago, and maybe this coincides with my own increasing confidence in what I was doing as well. But just this view that potentially we don't have the skills and experience of our male counterparts and maybe the cultural hiring practises of Australia cement to that in some way, shape or form. So I definitely felt that way. But again, it could be coinciding with coming to a foreign country. For me, I came from the United States. I didn't know anybody, even though I had incredible skill and qualifications, in so many ways I think it was really challenging because of this sort of narrow view. And I think Australia has definitely broadened and changed in that way.
Katherine Raskob:
I think you can see it in our leadership with female premiers and prime ministers. I think we can see it in board positions, which are, female representation is increasing. Definitely CEO, female CEOs are increasing. So I do think Australia has grown and changed in this area. And again, I can't exactly say why. I think in terms of confidence, for me I always have had a level of confidence and that's probably the way I was raised and the way I was educated in the U.S.
Katherine Raskob:
So potentially it wasn't too hard, but you do have to turn off. And I think all of us are guilty of that, the negative chatter in your head about why it's not possible, why you're not good enough, why you don't have the skills or experience. And really flip that to just give it a go idea, because otherwise I think you just sink down into not really getting ahead or really doing the kinds of things that you know you can do. And it's little things, I think. We've seen in the news the last couple of months with regard to the handling of the coronavirus pandemic how world leaders who are female are, really amazing leaders. And in their own right they've been able to really advance.
Mark Jones:
Now, let's talk about the wider story in the fundraising space. A particular passion of mine is purpose-driven organisations. And we've worked here at Filtered Media with many different not-for-profits and cause-related organisations over the years. One of the challenges that I've noticed has been a real opportunity to increase the level of getting more senior seasoned professionals from outside of the not-for-profit sector into the C-suite as it were.
Mark Jones:
A lot of people begin in these organisations, if I'm to stereotype for a moment, a lot of passion and kind of rise through the ranks. We're in a very competitive market space. And it's an area where, in order to succeed, you're going to have to bring in some really big, clever ideas. Otherwise you're just going to get lost in all the sea of sameness among all the different charities out there, thousands of them, right? So, what's your view on how we kind of raise the bar professionally within the not-for-profit sector?
Katherine Raskob:
I think you're right. The opportunity to bring in professional experience from outside the sector is important. And potentially as we face the ongoing effects of this pandemic, there may be more of an opportunity for people to look at their own career and say, "You know, I want to actually make a difference. I want that difference to be measured. I don't want it to necessarily be on the balance sheet. I want it to be in human need and capital." And I think there might be some opportunity for more and more professionals from outside the sector to come into the sector. I think the challenge there is that working in a not-for-profit environment and fundraising in particular is really challenging. And there are a lot of people outside the sector who say, "Oh, I'm really incredible at what I do. I'm going to go in there, I'm going to make a change there. And I'm going to tell those little not-for-profit guys how to do stuff right. " And I think that's a mistake.
Katherine Raskob:
They realise when they get into the sector is how bloody hard it is and how difficult it is to work in the constraint environments. We demand so much of charities worldwide. So we demand that charities raise all the funds that they can from any avenue and put it all to the cause and don't get paid very well and don't invest in technology or in digital or other areas to advance. And make sure that every penny of what we give is actually going to the cause and it's an impossible task. So one of the things I do like to say to people who are considering coming into the sector from outside, the not-for-profit sector is to be very realistic about what you want to achieve and what you can achieve. And also to come with a collegiate approach, as opposed to this, "I'm going to make a difference. I'm going to change you. I'm going to use all my expertise to really do that."
Katherine Raskob:
Having said that, diversity of experience a, opinion, background skill is so critical for any sector, including the not-for-profit sector. In order for us to really innovate and adapt to these changing circumstances and to the number of causes and asks that are out there, we do need to absolutely think very broad, very far, very wide and very inclusive and make sure that we're listening to all viewpoints and experiences and ideas, rather than just the sort of the one narrow one. So I think that is going to be really critical into the future. So JBWere say that they're projecting a 7.1% decrease in charitable giving in the rest of this year, almost 12% next year. So that's 20% in under two years, right? And that will bring us back to the levels of giving in about 2012. So that suggests to me that we've got some very hard yards and work ahead in the coming years to be able to capture the attention and the imagination and the emotion of continuing charitable giving in Australia.
Mark Jones:
I think you're in a unique position to comment on this as the member body for all of these amazing organisations out there. Do you think we're going to see more consolidation in the sector as a result of that?
Katherine Raskob:
It's likely. There are almost 57,000 charities in Australia, that's a lot. Per capita it's very high. I think New Zealand has a higher per capita charity number then Australia, but we're definitely right up there. And I think sometimes the distinctions between some of them can be challenging. So it's possible that there will be some consolidation. You know, I dearly hope not. Everyone who starts a charity has the very best intentions and often a very strong emotional connection to the cause for which they believe a charity is worthwhile. And so that would certainly be quite sad. But I guess at the end of the day the market will, I guess dictate who's able to continue and who's not able to continue. And hopefully the needs for which funds are being raised will continue to be met through fundraising by whomever is possible.
Mark Jones:
So tell me then how are you helping the charities out there in this time? What are the services that you're providing? How are you advising them? You've got an interesting lens obviously from the marketing perspective, helping them to tell their story. So what are you doing?
Katherine Raskob:
Yeah,I think what's really is this idea of ethical best practise fundraising. We actually believe that the reason why we're allowed to fundraise is because we have a social licence to do that. So Australians and people around the world say, "We believe there are causes and needs that need support. And we believe that governments or whoever make decisions about that are falling short." Those are all priorities and choices that governments and other people make. So we believe that we're allowed to ask the public for funds for those causes. But we can't just treat that in a very non-committal or nonprofessional way. And so FIA's role is actually advancing ethical best practise fundraising amongst its members to make sure that fundraisers have the skills and the training and the education and the guidance to be able to ask responsibly and in an ethical way.
Katherine Raskob:
So we have a code of conduct, which is self-regulatory, it's not forced on anyone. But members who join FIA abide by this code, and it's really around donor treatment, supporter treatment and making sure that the way we ask for funds, the way we talk about the impact that we're making is front and centre and in a very professional way. And if we do that well, then we can continue to fundraise into the future, which is so critical. And also the fundraising sector is highly complex.
Katherine Raskob:
And so FIA do quite a lot of work in the advocacy space to make sure that governments, both Commonwealth and state and potentially even down to the council level, understand the needs and requirements of fundraisers, and that we can ensure that we're often up front and centre around reducing the red tape burden for registration and licencing and all these other areas that really make it difficult for fundraising to operate in Australia. So the advocacy combined with this ongoing approach, which is best practise and ethical approach to fundraising events and training in development and in your own profession as a fundraiser are the key areas that we provide for our members to be able to continue fundraising into the future.
Mark Jones:
It's part of that ethics framework. What's the role of a brand? And I imagine your marketing experience would speak to that, particularly at SBS, where you've got a very strong brand in your career there. Being able to use that brand to get a story across more powerfully, how does that work for the charity sector?
Katherine Raskob:
Yeah, it's equally important. I love brand marketing and it's a passion of mine and has been for a long time. I love the idea of marks and creating ways that people can be attracted or attracted to you and your brand and spark imagination, and I think that is really important. In the case of charities it's even more critical that it's backed up with action. Because they're at the forefront every day, raising funds and also distributing funds that they've raised for causes that are required. So a brand in this space is really, really important and that brand promise and be able to ensure that you're delivering on your promise is really critical. And unlike other industries and sectors, this is where that storytelling, just getting back to that is so important, because just saying, "Please give money for this," is really not enough.
Katherine Raskob:
I think charities who do a good job and who have very strong brand promises say, "If you do this, here's the impact that you're going to make." And it's not about outcomes like we're going to be able to ... I mean, it's important to say you can feed hungry people or help girls, or get koalas back into the wildlife environment in a safe way. But actually what is the impact that that has? And I think to be able to tell that story and that your brand lives up to delivering on that story every day in every interaction is so important.
Katherine Raskob:
And what we also know from experience worldwide is that when one charity brand gets it wrong, it can have a devastating impact on the entire sector. So if a charity brand goes awry or astray in this area, it can impact giving by Australians to other charity brands. So the responsibility is enormous and it's so important that as a charity brand, you're looking after your own brand, but also not just on your own behalf, but for the entire giving sector in Australia.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And I think it's, as part of that impact, it's the why. What's the, why should I care about this? And it's a really difficult question to ask. In my case I've got a number of organisations I support, and from a personal perspective, that's where my commitments lie. So if it's a new brand, I will be asking why. It's an interesting question I think for leaders in this space. Because they're so purpose driven and they're so focused on their purpose, but they have to articulate why the purpose matters. And I think that's an interesting aspect of this whole conversation.
Katherine Raskob:
I think that's a really good point, Mark. One of the areas that I've always loved in marketing is the Simon Sinek “Start with Why” idea. Because I think when you start there, that's when you're really able to connect your own purpose with your customer's purpose. And being able to start there and answer that question is so important to be able to make that connection. And I think a lot of us don't start there, we start with the what or the how. And I think really thinking personally for yourself and then for your own organisation about that why is how I think we can have better success in making those connections.
Mark Jones:
Yeah, that's great. Well, I hope people will take something out of that, because obviously we all want to see more charities and not-for-profits survive and thrive in this environment that we live in. Because my goodness me, a lot of people need it, right? So it's a really important time to have this conversation. Well look, we've covered quite a few kind of territory areas here. I'm interested, maybe just on the storytelling. How do you think the charity narrative's going to change in the coming year? Because I can only see the needs getting greater. You've sort of told us about another narrative, which is the dollars coming in will be getting less. Where's the gap going to come from? What's the future looking like?
Katherine Raskob:
I think fundraisers are able to continue to talk about impact that they're making and why it's so important. And I think that they'll have to probably double and triple their efforts in that area, because storytelling, capturing the imagination, clearly articulating the impact will be really important. We do know that even in very severe times, recessions, disasters, that Australians will continue to give. So it is a matter of continuing to ask, continuing to outline the reason for the need to be met in a respectful and ethical way of course, and allowing donors and supporters to give in any way they can.
Katherine Raskob:
And maybe it will be in different ways. Maybe it won't just be in the usual monetary ways, but maybe this will start people thinking, "Maybe I need to leave a gift in my will for example, I don't have any spare now, but I do really want to make sure that I leave a legacy and leave a gift potentially in my will to a charity." And coincidentally enough it's Include a Charity Week, which is the goal in the campaign movement to get people to leave a gift. And they will, but it's those kinds of things where we have to leave it to donors and supporters to decide how they want to engage and how they want to give, even if it's different from the way they always have. And allowing that to happen in that space to happen I think it's going to be important.
Mark Jones:
Well, that to me says creativity. You're going to start thinking outside the traditional channels of income that you've had from the public and you know, yeah. As I say, "Think outside the square." Wow. Well look, is there anything else you wanted to add about your experience from CMO to CEO? Clearly you're enjoying it. Maybe what's the best thing about at all?
Katherine Raskob:
Yeah look, I really do like leading an organisation. I think hiring good people is really important. One of the things that Jodie told me when I took this role is, she said, "Now make sure when you get there that you act like a CEO, not a CMO, because your comfort zone is marketing, right? And you probably want to do all the marketing and you'll see a 100 things that you want to change as soon as you get there. But make sure that you hire somebody really good to do the marketing so that you don't focus on that, and you focus on running the company, running the organisation."
Katherine Raskob:
And that is a really, that's a good piece of advice, I've held it in good stead. Right away when I arrived at FIA, I cast about for a really strong marketer, somebody who I could trust and incidentally has good fundraising experience as well, which is not my background and who could really add value there. So that I can go, "I trust you, you do the marketing, I'll certainly give you my opinion all the time. But letting go of that idea that I'm the marketer actually, I'm running this organisation.
Katherine Raskob:
And I think that's a critical piece of advice that Jodie gave me that I would give to any marketer going into a CEO role to hire well. Make sure you've got somebody covering the marketing, don't micromanage that, and make sure that you're focused on running the organisation rather than the marketing.
Katherine Raskob:
Make sure you get a seat at the leadership table. Make sure that your marketing experience is recognised and contributed to at a senior level of the executive team, I think that's really important. Taking on projects and other areas of the business besides marketing, even though probably you're so busy yourself and completely overwhelmed. Taking on additional areas like digital transformation or in my case it was other functions like membership really helped to add value to your experience as a marketer. And get some board experience. So thinking about that sort of helicopter view of how organisations are governed and managed and run, having a view from a board director's position is really helpful when you want to get into the CEO role.
Mark Jones:
Katherine Raskob, thanks for being our guest today on the CMO Show.
Katherine Raskob:
It was my pleasure Mark, thank you.
Mark Jones:
That was my conversation with Katherine Raskob, and I hope you got a lot out of that interview. I know I certainly did, I’m thinking of all these great insights. In particular, I loved her point about how a marketer’s skill set - that is their ability to communicate effectively, and tell stories, and paint a vision and lead transformation - how all of that makes them well suited to a CEO role. I also agree with Katherine that when looking to take the leap from one business function to another or even just a different role, it’s important to always be open to taking on new projects and challenges in other areas besides marketing because of course, this will provide you with a wealth of opportunities to foster your creativity.
Mark Jones:
Now, just before I go, if you do have another topic or guest that you think we should consider–particularly in this purpose-driven area that we’re really passionate about–do drop the team a line at cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au. We love to hear from you, so keep the emails flowing! We are on a mission to tell stories brilliantly here at Filtered Media and The CMO Show, so please do help us get the message out. We’d love you to like, and comment, and share, and let people know about the program. And as always, it’s been great to have you. Until next time.