Jason Olive on engaging communities with Ovarian Cancer Australia
Jason Olive, Chief Marketing, Fundraising & Communications Officer at Ovarian Cancer Australia, sits down with Mark Jones to discuss the importance of engaging their community and placing them at the front of their storytelling, and what the corporate and social sectors can learn from each other.
Making the move from the corporate sector to the not-for-profit might seem like a bit of a culture shock.
Though it wasn't without its challenges, for Jason Olive, his background in creative and media agencies helped prepare him for the move to Movember as their CMO, and now as Chief Marketing, Fundraising & Communications Officer at Ovarian Cancer Australia (OCA).
The impetus for Jason to make the move was to make an impact.
"I know that a lot of people that would be listening to this show would be probably feeling the same," Jason says. "I was certainly feeling that I wanted to make a bit more of an impact, and go into an organisation where I was able to see that impact, and deliver the impact a bit more end to end," Jason says.
It's a feeling that's shared cross-sector. "I think a lot of executives in the world of not-for-profit, and in the corporate space are really looking to build really strong narratives around purpose, and I think that a lot of executives in brand roles are looking to bring more purpose into their world and indeed their brands," Jason says.
Jason believes there's a lot that not-for-profits can teach organisations in the corporate sector on how to reach and connect with their consumers, albeit at a very different level.
For Jason and OCA, with a diverse community of people, they understand how important it is to connect with audiences along different pathways of the care journey – essential when communicating complex and important ideas.
The way they do this is by placing the community themselves at the front of the storytelling. "It's a real core tenant of the way that we tell stories at Ovarian Cancer Australia. We've got real people telling their lived experience," Jason says.
"Having those people share their story also gives those people a voice and gives them the ability to feel like they're making a real change as well, and it also helps them through their cancer journey," Jason says.
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Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@impactinstitute.com.au.
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Participants:
Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Jason Olive
In Australia, collaboration and partnerships between the social sector and the corporate sector continue to grow.
For marketers who are driven by purpose and impact, there's much to learn from people who understand the value of these partnerships.
In particular, we're interested in shared ideas about how we can best engage with the community.
Of course, budget constraints are another shared journey.
So how are you making the most of your partnerships?
Hello friends! Mark Jones here. So great to have you join us on another episode of The CMO Show.
Today we're talking to Jason Olive, CMO at Ovarian Cancer Australia.
Jason has a mix of both creative and media agency experience, and we talk about his transition into the not-for-profit sector.
We spoke about what both the corporate and social sectors can learn from each other and how they can grow together.
Jason recently joined Ovarian Cancer Australia from Movember, and of course I asked him about how a charity can get famous by sticking moustaches on buses.
Let's go to my conversation with Jason Olive.
Mark Jones:
Thanks for joining us, Jason.
Jason Olive:
Yeah, great to be here.
Mark Jones:
Ah, look, it's our pleasure. Now, we actually first started talking with you when you were at Movember and of course now at Ovarian Cancer Australia, just to get to know you a little bit, tell me about your interest in the cancer journey that people experience, and how you feel like you can make a contribution.
Jason Olive:
Yeah, for sure. So my experience and background is in a mix of both creative and media agency experience. I think coming into the not-for-profit sector, I was really keen to come in and look at different pathways that we could reach people along the care journey, in particular in the cancer space. I would say that over the last few years, especially as COVID has broken, there's been a lot of need to disrupt that pathway a bit, because the number of people presenting during COVID has gone down quite significantly. So I'm really passionate about finding new ways to reach people and engage with them that might sit a bit off the traditional or beaten track, that we might have used before.
Mark Jones:
Oh, that's great. So you mentioned your agency past, so you're at Clemenger, BBDO and Media Brands before that, what was the moment that you decided, "You know what, I think I'm going to go into the not for profit sector?"
Jason Olive:
I think everybody has a bit of a moment before they move across to not-for-profit, or when they move across to a client side role. Mine was certainly during, it was actually during a particular workshop that I was on, and I came to realise that I wasn't getting excited anymore about some of the products that I was selling. And I wanted to feel like I was making a bit of a difference. I know that a lot of people that would be listening to this show would be probably feeling the same. I think during COVID there's been a lot of introspection that people have done, and I was certainly feeling that I wanted to make a bit more of an impact, and go into an organisation where I was able to see that impact, and deliver the impact a bit more end to end.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And any particular reason why it was Movember?
Jason Olive:
Yeah. I've got a big interest in mental health as well, and for me, going into Movember, there were a number of reasons for joining. One obviously is the brand, but also the incredible community that came with that, so working with a community of people who raise funds for both mental health and cancer, the two cancers being prostate cancer and testicular cancer, and being able to have that diversity going into a role. Knowing that I wanted to go into the not-for-profit sector meant that then I could experience working with a number of different disease areas, before obviously going into the role that I've got at OCA at the moment.
Mark Jones:
So what was that like for you, because I'm asking on behalf of, I imagine, some itchy listeners, our audience who either have done the whole, "Should I join a not-for-profit thing?" Or, they are a bit unsettled with, "Am I making an impact?" Or, "How can I reposition myself in a way?" And I think we all go through these sort of moments from time to time, but I think that is an interesting part of your story.
Jason Olive:
Yeah, I think there's always that feeling of imposter syndrome when you come into a world that you are not as familiar with. I'd had some non-profit clients in the past, hadn't really properly understood the nuance and shape of a not-for-profit until I was actually in it. It is a significant jump and it is quite a significant change of pace, coming from working in agency, which is very much around service delivery, but you are still presented with really interesting problems to solve. And you’re definitely able to work in a much more upstream fashion, so what I would say to anyone that's considering it is, I would definitely do some research. Have a look at, especially when you're looking at not-for-profits, have a look at their annual reports, have a look at those non-for-profits that are in growth, or otherwise have a look at those non-for-profits that are doing really interesting things, and those things that really align with your own purpose.
Jason Olive:
So I was really passionate about going into a not-for-profit where there was a diverse range of problems to solve, across a number of different disease areas, whereas you could be really interested in the world of women's health, or you could be really interested in the world of human rights and having a really strong understanding of the organisation before you start to approach them, or go into interview is really important. So I would say those annual reports are pretty critical in getting an understanding on where that organisation is going, as opposed to where they're at, at the moment.
Mark Jones:
Yeah, it's a great tip. There's actually a lot of crossover partnerships between not-for-profits and the corporate space, and we're seeing increasing amounts of activity there as executives seek to learn from each other. What was the culture shock that you went through? You mentioned the issue around imposter syndrome, and I imagine that's part of the culture shock too, but in terms of how you see the two sectors growing, and I guess growing together, but learning from each other, what were your initial thoughts and how have you been pushing into that? How do we bring these two worlds together?
Jason Olive:
Hmm. It's really interesting. I think a lot of executives in the world of not-for-profit in the corporate space are really looking to build really strong narratives around purpose, and I think that a lot of executives in brand roles are looking to bring more purpose into their world and indeed their brands. And there's a lot that not-for-profits can teach those organisations around how to reach and connect with their consumers, obviously at a very different level, when you consider the not-for-profit space. So I do think that there's a lot to learn from not-for-profits, in the way that we engage consumers, obviously in our case, it's a community of people. And really, we have to understand how to be really smart with quite small funds.
Jason Olive:
I think quite often having constraints is perhaps quite helpful for brands. It allows us to really think about the problem that we're trying to solve. I remember there was a book that I was recommended back in media agency land, called A Beautiful Constraint, and it was all about thinking about problems that you can solve by using a bit of a challenger mentality. And these challenger brands really thrive when they start to think about how they can be transformative within that sector, what levers they can pull that nobody else can pull, and I think having that lens of being a challenger and sometimes having less budgets allows you to look at problems you can solve in a slightly different way.
Mark Jones:
We'll talk about ovarian cancer in just a moment, but as for Movember, we're recording this during Movember as it were.
Jason Olive:
Yes.
Mark Jones:
And buses with moustaches everywhere, in fact, I just noticing them this morning. I think there's an interesting part of that story that we can learn from within the constraint. You actually go from a constraint mindset to a mass awareness type scenario, regardless of what the budgets are. Something like that becomes part of the national calendar. And I think a lot of not-for-profits, and even, I'd suggest, corporates strive from that from a marketing perspective. How do you almost become iconic, at the bus level, right? So you've obviously had a journey in that. What would you say would be your top couple of lessons that take you from tight constraints, to really getting that sort of reach?
Jason Olive:
Hmm. I'd say probably the main one, and certainly the case with Movember, is really understand what your distinguishable assets are. Obviously the moustache for Movember is iconic. You can put a moustache on anything, and everybody knows that it's Movember now. Really thinking about what is that one thing that you can hone? What is the period of time that you can own? There are obviously some limitations with that as well in the sense that you can be very much present in one particular month, but need to look at how you're bringing in revenue throughout the year as well, which was certainly a really great challenge that I was working through during my time there.
Jason Olive:
I'd say probably the other one for me is really getting a strong understanding of who your community are. So at Movember, we used this phrase, which basically spoke to the community are our rock stars, and we are the roadies to those rock stars. So really elevating the importance of the community. Learning from them, spending a lot of time with them, and certainly it's something that I see at OCA as well. The really understanding the community, and hearing their stories as much as possible, really helps fuel the development of the brand itself.
Mark Jones:
So then onto OCA, Ovarian Cancer Australia, that community is always important in any charity, in any organisation, and in the corporate space, there's a very big conversation that continues to grow on customer experience. That idea that we need to personalise, we need to really understand, we need to move in technical speak from getting more first person data, really understanding who they are, and all those sorts of great things. How important is it to really understand the community that you're serving?
Jason Olive:
Yeah, it's really important to understand the community that we're serving, and for Ovarian Cancer Australia, we have obviously a quite specific audience of women that are affected by ovarian cancer. The disease does also affect younger women. It's actually estimated that this year there will be 1700 women that will get the disease, and over a thousand will unfortunately die from the disease. So it's one woman every eight hours that we sadly lose, but when it comes to really understanding that audience, we're lucky enough to have a programme of work called The Teal Support Programme. And that is essentially a support programme where we have some amazing nurses that help those women through their journey. And I would say that working really closely with our programmes and support team, is really critical for us as a fundraising and marketing team, so I look after the fundraising part of the organisation as well, and really hearing those stories from that particular audience and learning from them is critical.
Jason Olive:
We also use Salesforce across the organisation, so we don't just use it in the world of marketing and fundraising, it's also used as part of the support team. And having that understanding and learning from the women that we support as well is absolutely critical, and having that really 360 lens is something that I think, because of the size of the organisation we are, we're able to do. And then certainly the broader piece of work that we're looking at, at the moment, is spending some time really understanding who our donors are, what they want to hear from us, how often they want to hear from us.
Mark Jones:
Give us a quick sketch while we're on it, size of the organisation, the people you serve, number of donors and so forth.
Jason Olive:
Yeah. So in terms of the size of the organisation, so there's about 40 people across the organisation. We serve the whole of Australia. In terms of the number of donors that we have within our portfolio, so we usually see a few hundred thousand people donate across the year. We also have a number of different peer to peer fundraisers, there's actually one that's running at the moment called Workout For Women, and we've got over 1000 women that are effectively running or walking 4Ks a day for the four women that we lose each day to ovarian cancer. That particular audience of people is more of a peer to peer lens, but then we also have other peer to peer fundraisers as well.
Mark Jones:
Yep. And obviously peer to peer fundraising is a key thing, as is storytelling, and I'd love to talk about storytelling in just a moment. But it sounds like you've got an incredible growth there and a great community, that's really active and engaged, which is great to hear. Tell me about the organisation itself from your point of view, as a bloke, is the obvious question to ask, right. I mean, here's two blokes talking about ovarian cancer, which just to call out the elephant in the room. It's great that obviously you have the role, but how have you approached that dynamic? And in particular, I'm interested in how you develop a sense of empathy for the people that you're serving.
Jason Olive:
Yeah, it's a really interesting question, and it was something that I spent a lot of time thinking about during the interview process, and our amazing CEO Jane Hill and I were having a conversation about it as well. I think when we look at ovarian cancer, and indeed when you are looking at gender based charities like Movember, or the Breast Cancer Foundation, there's quite a world of people that cancer effects, obviously. So if we look at our particular organisation, Ovarian Cancer Australia, we've developed programmes for men in particular, so a male carers programme.
Jason Olive:
So coming into the organisation, I already understood that we were looking at the full care cycle and looking at the unmet needs of those women, and people around them. So I think, when you are looking at gender based charity, sometimes it does cross your mind that perhaps I shouldn't be in the organisation and leading marketing and fundraising. But there's lots of amazing CEOs and leaders that are perhaps not the same gender as the people that we're advocating for, but you understand, and obviously love those people. And there's people within your own life, that might have been impacted by ovarian cancer as well.
Jason Olive:
I lost somebody in my family to ovarian cancer and that's what really fuels you, as opposed to worrying too much about whether or not you are the right person, or gender, for the role.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And thinking a little bit more broadly about the issue, how do you approach messaging and communications around the topic of gender?
Jason Olive:
Yeah, it's a really interesting one. So I've just come out of a conversation, talking about how we use more inclusive language. As a really strong advocate for DE&I and I know our leadership team is as well. We're really conscious of using more inclusive language across all of our comms. We speak to our vision, which is, "No woman with ovarian cancer should walk alone." We're actually going to be changing that to, "No person with ovarian cancer will walk alone." And that speaks to obviously non-cis women, that might get ovarian cancer. It speaks to non-binary people, but it also critically speaks to those people that ovarian cancer impacts that isn't just the person that gets ovarian cancer in the first place. So the gendered language is something that we will eventually start moving away from, across all of our comms.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Look, that's great to hear, particularly from the inclusive perspective and more broadly, the storytelling side of things too. So you've been really looking at, how do I build on that peer support model that you use in the organisation to tell those stories? And we've, by the way, seen this many times over, that it's often best to have the people themselves in the community tell the stories, not the CEO or yourself, or any other quote-unquote, expert, within the organisation. So just give us a quick window into how you're communicating some of these really big important ideas, through the community themselves.
Jason Olive:
Yeah, so we certainly have our amazing community front a lot of the storytelling. It's a real core tenant of the way that we tell stories at Ovarian Cancer Australia. We've got real people telling their lived experience. It's obviously critical to help us raise awareness of ovarian cancer, and helping us advance the work that we do inside the organisation. We actually share stories from the community, they're de-identified, but when we have staff meetings, at the beginning of our fortnightly staff meeting, it helps really fuel the team and the work that we do. Having those people share their story also gives those people a voice, and gives them the ability to feel like they're making a real change as well, and it also helps them through their cancer journey.
Jason Olive:
People obviously want purpose, so even when they're unwell, telling their story helps them feel and give purpose to what we're doing. So, our community is so important to us and they're the people that help others take action, whether it's signing up for an event, donating, spreading awareness throughout media or volunteering. So, yeah. I would say that the community that we have around us are really critical for that. And when it comes to media obviously, it's the community that the media want to speak to, because they're reflective of Australia and the other Australians that we want to take action. Yeah, storytelling is really important for us.
Mark Jones:
You mentioned earlier your passion for creativity and obviously, you like to balance the art of storytelling with the science, and perhaps the data, that goes with it. What are you doing different, or perhaps what's the way you're approaching that storytelling that would move people in such a way that they would give, or that they would join, or that they'd investigate further? What have you found that really works that other people could learn from?
Jason Olive:
One of the things that I think is really interesting about storytelling is when you strip it back and when you look at the science behind storytelling. So when you tell a story, it actually releases oxytocin around the people that are hearing the stories from you. And what's really great about that is people certainly respond, and they feel a sense of kindness and certainly a sense of empathy, so when you think about when you meet new people, great storytellers make you feel like you belong. When you're at the pub, these people really make you feel special. When you go to an event, the storytellers are really those ones to watch.
Jason Olive:
So if we look at the science behind the storytelling, so back to the point around oxytocin, I was reading a piece actually a few years ago in the HBR about oxytocin, and apparently if you measure oxytocin synthesis, you can actually predict whether or not somebody is going to donate money after hearing a piece of storytelling. And there's a few things that help you do that, and it's those few things that I've really held true, whenever we've built campaigns with the teams that I've worked with.
Jason Olive:
So you've got to generate attention in the platform that you're telling the story within. You can't just take a story and then try and deliver that story across multiple platforms. You need to think about the platform first, so right for that platform to begin with.
Jason Olive:
So you've got to make sure that you've got some really clear character driven stories as well, and going back to what we were talking about before, making sure that we've got the community telling their own story, or somebody close to them. There has to be a really clear tension that's been built in that story as well, so we need to carry that tension through the story, and that obviously pulls people to the end of the piece of content that they're watching, and obviously generate an action.
Jason Olive:
And then critically as well I would say, that you've got to create a real clear role for people to act. So it's all well in good telling this incredible story from the community, but if I don't know how I can play a role, or what problem that you want me to solve, then it's very unlikely then that person will go on and act. So, I would certainly say those three things would be things to remember.
Mark Jones:
Yeah, that's fantastic. Great advice, and obviously, you're saying there at the end, make it super easy. Don't make people think too hard in terms of exactly the one thing you want them to do, and ideally, just click and you're done. I'm speaking from experience there, in terms of supporting causes and so on, you have to jump through so many hoops. I think there's a lot of work to be done around user experience, and really thinking about removing barriers, I think is a key thing.
Jason Olive:
Yeah. Remove the barriers, but don't remove so much friction so that people don't remember why they engage with you in the first place. We still need to remind people when they're donating where that money's going, but certainly remove that friction and make it feel easy for people, so they'll come back and do it again as well.
[STING]
Mark Jones:
Now, tell me about competition, and how you think about yourself, serving an organisation that is competitive in the sense of, lots of cancer charities trying to get a slice of the dollar. It's pretty crude to talk in those terms, but equally, that's part of the challenge that you face, particularly on the fundraising side of your role. So how do you think about that and how do you approach it with, if you feel like, a sense of integrity and authenticity to the way that you do your work?
Jason Olive:
Yeah, I would say it's really interesting, and the topic of competitors often comes up in conversations like these, but I genuinely believe our competitor at the moment is people's time. It's not competitor brands, it's not thinking about what other share of wallet brands should we be considering, but it's actually people's attention and time. And I think in the economy, where getting people's attention is really tricky right now, and people are going through a lot of change. The way that people respond to content at the moment is changing. People are returning back to work. People's mindsets are shifting. I would say that our biggest challenge really is getting attention from those people, and getting them to care and act in the first place, as opposed to other brands within the category.
Mark Jones:
No, that's fair enough. And I think we've seen a lot of behaviour change, and new habits forming. I actually heard a really interesting speaker yesterday saying, that one of the biggest concerns globally for marketers is that people have developed new habits and we haven't caught up with it, in the marketing community. And significantly, if your habits have changed, or your views and beliefs have changed, and you're not following the same patterns, the old ways of marketing won't work. You've really got to either try to change their behaviour again, or find that, if you like, that new behavioural pattern that allows you to engage in an authentic and appropriate way. How much of a challenge do you think that will be, just building on your comments there about competing for attention?
Jason Olive:
Hmm. I would say that it's definitely something that we're thinking about at the moment, and thinking about that traditional pathway and supporter journey that we might go on with some of the people that fundraise for us. Also, when we're thinking about the patients and the community that we're serving as well. We saw a 50% increase in calls to our helpline during the initial COVID lockdown. I think what we need to remember though, is that some of the foundational elements of storytelling remain the same. We don't necessarily need to reinvent the wheel there.
Jason Olive:
I would say that the way that we show up, and maybe the channels that we might deploy, might be slightly different, moving into the future. And maybe there's a bit more of a job to do in delivering more effective reach and frequency. I often think that in the world of marketing, marketers often favour relationships with their creative agency and maybe we might see marketers lean in a bit more to the relationship that they have with the media agency to deliver precise media buy. So I do think that it will help us rethink things, in a bit of a positive way as well.
Mark Jones:
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's true. Now, speaking of measurement, I guess one of the last topics I wanted to really touch on here is, thinking about long term sustainable positive change, which we think of as impact and a distinction between that, and obviously you've spoken about your organisation's purpose, and that no person with ovarian cancer would walk alone. It was interesting looking at your reports, the annual reports that you mentioned, for the organisation. Obviously there's a lot of activity measurement that's going on and we see this, it's not unique, a lot of organisations use activity measurement, or outputs and outcomes as a proxy for impact. In other words, this sense of long term sustainable positive change.
Mark Jones:
I wonder how you're thinking about that journey towards measuring that impact. Measurements that you might be thinking about, and clearly one of the points for that would be, how you use that in the storytelling. How you use that in fundraising and then how you use that to encourage donors, because donors obviously love to know that it's making a difference.
Jason Olive:
Yeah. So one of the things that I think is really important in the world of fundraising and also in the world of impact, is really marrying the two things up. So I often talk about the virtual circle of impact and income, and the importance of being able to speak to the impact when you're fundraising. And then on the flip side, speak to fundraising at times of impact as well, to really generate more activity from that particular community member. So I think the virtual circle is really important. I think when you are in a not-for-profit as well, you don't always have the liberty of running very separate campaigns, so being able to marry that up a bit is really important.
Jason Olive:
To your question around how we measure outcomes, yes, absolutely. We speak to the number of people that have been through any of our programmes, or the number of people that have been able to receive support from us. Over the last year, we've had more than 1200 people, which includes partners, family, friends, that have been impacted by ovarian cancer. See support from us, whether that's through the helpline or our Teal Support Programme, or have received a resilience kit from us as well. We have also been working in the background on some really excellent work around our theory of change and ultimately, and absolutely, the main measure for us is looking to the number of women who die from the disease each year.
Jason Olive:
With it being the deadliest women's cancer, we do feel like we have a responsibility in both supporting and advocating for those women. So we desperately want to see those numbers go down and we want to see more women surviving past that five year point. At the moment it's sitting at 47%, and that number's just gone up by 2% in the last few weeks. The numbers have just come out, which is amazing because that roughly equates to about 20 to 25 people each year, which is incredible. But with it being the deadliest women's cancer and, such a misunderstood disease, when we speak to other people in the community, there's still a lot of work to do, for us to increase that survival rate.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. I imagine too, there'd be other important measurements of impact in terms of community, the family support, and how they feel and how they're responding to the programme. So there's that wider circle, right?
Jason Olive:
Definitely. So we use NPS scores that speaks to how these support programmes are delivering, and the importance of really marrying up that impact and income is so important. When we go to partners, we can talk them about how we have incredible NPS scores that sit around the 80, 90%, so that they know that when people are putting down the dollars, it is going into programmes that are really genuinely impactful, that really drive change for those people and their families.
Mark Jones:
Mm-hmm. That's great. So obviously it's early in your role here, what plans are you sketching out? What can we expect in the next year or so?
Jason Olive:
Yeah, the main thing that we're looking at, at the moment, is making sure that we've got all of the foundational elements in place, across the team, when it comes to how we're using our different technologies, making sure that they're all speaking to each other in the right way. One of the things that I'm really excited about that we are well underway in terms of planning, is Ovarian Cancer Awareness Month, which takes place in February. As part of that month, we have a giving day where all of our funds effectively get either doubled or tripled. So we're working with partners to build out til Ribbon Giving Day.
Mark Jones:
Yeah.
Jason Olive:
There's various products, that we're looking at, at the moment, and looking at bringing out new products. So yeah, watch this space. There's some really interesting things that we're doing.
Mark Jones:
That's great. Well, Jason Olive, thank you so much for being our guest on the CMO show today. It's really, really great to hear your story. And I think the combination of creativity, really looking at the impact that you can make, and a very thoughtful approach to community, it's a great set of ideas and skills that you'll bring to the table, so I wish you all the best in the weeks, months and years ahead.
Jason Olive:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Mark Jones:
Pleasure.
So that was my conversation with Jason Olive.
One main takeaway for me is how Jason is responding to the challenge of how their audiences' attention is changing – how to achieve cut-through when everyone is busy returning to work post-lockdown.
I also enjoyed hearing Jason highlight how brands can thrive when they embrace budget restrictions, and allow you to look at solving problems in a different, more transformative way.
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Thank you for joining us on The CMO Show. As always, it's been a pleasure.
Until next time.