How WorkVentures transform outputs into impact
Caroline McDaid, CEO at Australia’s leading IT social enterprise, WorkVentures, joins Mark Jones to discuss the art and science of impact storytelling.
Having been in operation for more than 40 years, you could say WorkVentures was at the forefront of the purpose-before-profit movement.
The organisation's mission is to drive social inclusion through technology and employment. Their passionate, purpose-driven team achieve this by influencing digital inclusion in the community, providing sustainable technology solutions, and igniting the potential in young people with meaningful skills, training and jobs.
It’s a broad remit, but one with a clearly defined purpose that helps crystallise meaningfully ways to connect with many different audiences and stakeholders.
“There's different stories depending on who we're talking to. I guess one of the challenges for me is knowing which story is most appropriate for the person that I'm talking to at that point in time,” says Caroline McDaid, CEO at WorkVentures.
“Like any kind of organisation, it’s about understanding the needs, wants and opportunities of the person and having the conversation that's most appropriate to them.”
From a marketing perspective, Caroline says that being able to support these stories with evidence of your organisation’s impact is the aspiration of many in the sector.
“Impact measurement is the holy grail of not-for-profits and social enterprises at the moment,” she says.
“It's what every organisation that has a social purpose is trying to do. They’re asking how they can measure their impact in the world and differentiate between outputs and outcomes.”
So, what is the difference and how can you make that distinction in your organisation? It’s time to grab a cuppa, hit play and find out.
Resources
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Professor John Roberts on Better Marketing for a Better World (BMBW)
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[Transcript]
Participants:
Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Caroline McDaid
Mark Jones:
How do you know your organisation is making a real difference in the world?
There’s a growing, and exciting approach to addressing this issue, and it’s called impact measurement.
What’s impact measurement?
In simple terms, it’s an evidence-based approach to understanding how our organisation’s activities – known as outputs – are making a long-term, sustained positive change in the community and individual lives.
It’s not a fast or easy exercise, but the cost of wasting our resources on ineffective programs can be even more of a challenge.
How are you investing in the future?
Hello friends, Mark Jones here.
Welcome to The CMO Show. Excited to join you for a great episode today. We have Caroline McDaid, chief executive officer at WorkVentures.
WorkVentures mission is to revive end of life technology and get it into the hands of people in Australia who are digitally excluded.
They are an IT social enterprise, training and working with young people and supporting those who are digitally excluded from society while working to reduce the impact on the environment.
Caroline has a background in professional services and media, and transitioned from the commercial sector into the not for profit sector, with a move from Foxtel to Greenpeace.
Today we covered connecting with different audiences through storytelling, balancing profit with the social impetus, and leadership.
I hope you enjoy.
Mark Jones:
Let's kick it off with a quick chat about your career journey. And I was interested to know what was that moment or a circumstance where you transitioned from the corporate world to the social sector?
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah. Great question. Thanks, Mark, and great to be here today. I had spent almost 18 years working across professional services, the media industries. I'd had incredible experiences across multiple industries, different continents, exciting clients, managing a P and L worth close to three quarters of a billion dollars, working on award winning Olympic Games products. So I just felt really privileged. I'd had so many great experiences working in fast paced jobs and just working with a huge range of diverse and smart people. So yeah, in retrospect, it does seem like a bit of a strange move, moving from the commercial sector into the not for profit. But I guess the moment for me was really, I'd always been concerned about climate and the general state of our planet. And I think when the 2018 IPCC report came out, I moved into a state, which I've now realised was probably high anxiety around the findings of that report and what it meant for the planet and what it meant for the future of my kids who were very young at the time and it was very confronting.
Caroline McDaid:
And at that point in time, I started to get involved in a bit of light level climate activism. And when an opportunity came up to work in that area, after agonising about the impact on my bank balance and what it would mean for future career prospects, I really jumped in and I haven't looked back. It's been just incredible shifting from the commercial sector into the for purpose sector, I've learned an incredible amount and met some really amazing people. I would recommend it to anyone really.
Mark Jones:
Yeah, absolutely. And just to jump in there, you went to Greenpeace.
Caroline McDaid:
That's right. Yeah.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. So you were at Foxtel working for Murdoch, and then you went to Greenpeace. Tell us about that moment.
Caroline McDaid:
You probably could not get two different, more different organisations, could you?
Mark Jones:
What was the culture shock like?
Caroline McDaid:
It wasn't as much of a shock. Yeah, it was very different. I have to say, both experiences were incredible. The people that I worked with at Foxtel were really fun, creative, really energetic, very passionate about content. When I moved to Greenpeace, I worked with an incredible bunch of people who were very, very passionate about the planet and climate and incredibly talented, really, really intelligent, smart people. And culturally, I learned a huge amount just from that shift about organising around a vision and having an entire workforce completely committed and dedicated behind that vision. It was really quite an experience.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. It sounds like it. Now, you're at WorkVentures today, which is a social enterprise. And just to quickly get a sense of what that means, a lot of people don't actually understand what a social enterprise is. So can you give us the elevator pitch?
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah, sure. So, in order to be classified as a social enterprise, you must do one of three things. You have to have a defined primary purpose, which is focused on social or cultural or environmental. You have to have the majority of your income derived from trade. And the third thing is really around that public and community benefit focus that the majority of your effort is invested in driving public and community benefit. So those are the three things you must do to be classified as a social enterprise.
Caroline McDaid:
There's a few different models which can be defined as social enterprise. So there's some that are employment generating. They really focus on generating employment for marginalised people. Another model is around community needs. So driving an accessible product to meet the needs of the community. And then the third model is profit redistribution. So it donates at least 50% of profits to charity. So there's probably a few that some people are really familiar with. Who Gives a Crap and Thankyou, the toilet role company, and Thankyou is the hand soaps. And they're both the third type of social enterprise, so they donate most of their proceeds to charity. Some others you might be familiar with are organisations like Street, where they provide catering and they focus on jobs for marginalised, young people, so different models.
Mark Jones:
So what's the heart behind that? Why would you form a social enterprise?
Caroline McDaid:
Look, I think it's really around that purpose. If an organisation has a purpose at its core and all of the activities of the organisation are driven around that purpose, and it's the purpose, most organisations, most companies, the primary purpose is generating profit either for the owners, the shareholders, et cetera. And most organisations now, or companies now do have a purpose element, but I guess the primary purpose is really around driving profit. For social enterprise, its purpose comes first and you drive profits to further that purpose and that purpose is driven around some kind of community benefit or greater good. I guess, just looking through those models, there's different ways that you can set them up. And it provides a lot of flexibility around which type of social enterprise people may be interested in using, to try and drive the primary purpose.
Mark Jones:
Obviously from a marketing perspective, we're always interested in the story of a brand, which is one of the reasons I ask about the context there, and I'm interested in the legacy, your founder, Steve Lawrence, who sadly is not with us today, but quite clearly, this was his vision back in the day. And can you give us a little sense about that and how that has shaped the organisation that you've now come to run as a CEO?
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah, so Steve Lawrence was our inspirational founder. He had a huge heart. WorkVentures is actually more than 40 years old, which is quite unusual for a social enterprise. I think it was a social enterprise before social enterprises were a thing. We still have many employees who were around when Steve was, and his values are still really at the core of what WorkVentures is around to do. We've definitely pivoted a lot during those 40 years as most organisations do. But I guess at the core it's been Steve's vision was around enabling communities and individuals to create a future for themselves, and that future providing meaning and purpose in their lives. So, I mean, really, that's what everyone's looking for, isn't it? Meaning and purpose in your lives and the ability to create that meaning and purpose, which has been at the core of what WorkVentures has been doing for 42 years.
Caroline McDaid:
And today, we still have that at our heart. Today, we're formed around three areas of purpose. One is digital inclusion, so driving digital inclusion. The second is youth unemployment, so addressing some of the barriers to youth unemployment, and then the third is driving a circular economy. So they're the three areas of purpose, which are all focused around our mission to drive social inclusion through technology and employment. So really, as you can hear, the core of what we do today, hasn't changed that much, but the way that we do it, is we have to maintain in accordance with the times that we're in.
Mark Jones:
Yep. And just practically speaking, that means you get your hands on some end of life, quote, unquote, devices from corporations, and you can repurpose them in other scenarios, right?
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah, that's right. So we have a really big mission, which is to try and drive as much of the end of life technology and get it back into the hands of the people in Australia who are digitally excluded. So, I mean, I'm not sure if you're aware, Mark, there's an index called the Australian Digital Inclusion Index that measures the level of digital inclusion in Australia. And as of the last index measurement for 2021, there's still about 28% of Australians are defined as either highly excluded or excluded when it comes to the digital economy. And there's a really strong correlation between that exclusion and income, education levels, disability and employment levels. So what we are really aiming to do is, you think about all of the companies that work across all the different sectors in Australia, on average, they're refreshing their technology every three years or so.
Caroline McDaid:
We take that end of life technology. We securely wipe it. We provide certification back to the companies. We then work with not-for-profits to get that into the hands of people that are really facing these barriers to digital inclusion. So primarily it would be marginalised students, job seekers, potentially elderly, isolated people. And we get those refurbished devices and we provide a lot of support around that as well. So it's not just the hardware, but we have internal contact centre of IT trainees who provide tech support and really help the people who we provide those devices to, access the internet, train them on how to use the devices, really support them in actually becoming part of the digital economy in this country and overcoming barriers to isolation.
Caroline McDaid:
So it's a really exciting opportunity and we have some amazing supporters. We've been getting devices from Westpac and NBN for years and years and years, and really appreciative of organisations like that, who've been helping us to support these marginalised groups.
Mark Jones:
Yeah, it's great. I mean, obviously there's an e-waste component to this too, so you're saving things from landfill or other negative outcomes and then there's a community benefit. So yeah. Look, I just think that's fantastic. How do you go about telling this story? My title is CEO and chief storyteller. I have this actual belief that CEOs are the chief storytellers of their organisation. You're the one who's out there speaking to key stakeholders, partners and so forth, and a big part of how the organisation grows and thinks about itself is that narrative that you share with others. I was just interested to get a bit of a sense from you as to what does it take to get it right here? What are the lessons that you can share around marketing, positioning an organisation like yours?
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah, it's a really good question, because we have different audiences that we're talking to. We have the prospective donors, so the prospective device donors are definitely a huge audience that we want to communicate that story to, and the way that they are able to take something that's end of life, relatively useless to them, and turn it into something that's actually really transformational when refurbished and put into a different set of hands. So there's definitely a really strong story around that opportunity. I mean the alternative for those organisations is recycling or potentially leasing and providing it back to their leasing company. But how great is it to think that every device that you have processed through your company is now going out and changing an individual's life. It's helping a young person access an education or it's helping someone that's been a long term unemployed train up for a job to reenter the economy. We're working with isolated, elderly people in Tasmania who otherwise don't have any means of communication.
Caroline McDaid:
So there's just so many stories that you can tell out of just that it's a very simple act of providing these devices. But then there's also other audiences that we're talking to. We're talking to the not-for-profits that we support in terms of not just the device, but the way that we can help their clients, these marginalised groups, overcome the barriers to digital inclusion. We're talking to organisations who may potentially take on trainees. So we support young again, marginalised people and help them find employment opportunities either with us or with other organisations who might be looking for entry level job candidates. So, there's different stories depending on who we're talking to. And I guess that's one of the challenges for me is knowing which story is most appropriate for the person that I'm talking to at that point in time.
Mark Jones:
What are the challenges you find when it comes to meeting new people? Perhaps you're trying to establish a new partner or somebody who can support your organisation financially, how do you get the story right for them?
Caroline McDaid:
I think it's understanding where they fit into the broader picture of WorkVentures, because as I said, we have different opportunities depending on where different organisations are. We release a social impact video every year, and we're just about to release our social impact video for the last calendar year, and it really highlights the different areas of impact that we have as an organisation, whether it's in youth unemployment, driving a circular economy, or supporting people when it comes to digital inclusion. And as you've said, it's difficult to cover all three of those areas in every conversation that we have. So it's really understanding, like any kind of organisation, what is the needs and the wants of the person that we're talking to and the opportunities, and really having the conversation that's most appropriate to them. So we do that, in most of the conversations that we have as an organisation and me personally.
Mark Jones:
That's great. Now you mentioned impact measurement and getting across that idea of reporting on some of those outcomes. Tell us about how critical that function is for you. And it's worth noting too, that you've done some direct work in this space prior to joining WorkVentures, too.
Caroline McDaid:
That's right. Yeah. Impact measurement is the holy grail of not-for-profits and social enterprises at the moment. It definitely has been and continues to be a hot topic because it's what every organisation that's had a social purpose is trying to do, how can they measure their impact in the world and differentiate between outputs and outcomes? There's quite a lot of conversation around this topic. I mean, for us, there's some areas where it's quite easy for us to measure the impact that we have. So particularly around youth unemployment. I'd say an output would be the number of young people that we support. But in terms of the outcomes and the impact that we have, I think it's upwards of 80% completion rate of our trainees, whereas the national average is about 58%. So, through the model that we put in place, more of our trainees are completing their studies, completing the necessary work experience. But 90% of them go on to ongoing employment.
Caroline McDaid:
So, our objective around addressing youth unemployment is we want more people to come through, gain work experience, gain life skills, and go on to longer term careers. And that's really coming through in the impact measurement that we're having in that space.
Caroline McDaid:
Where it's a bit more difficult, so digital inclusion, we can definitely measure things like the number of people that we support, the number of devices and the tech support and the wraparound services that we provide to try and address the barriers to digital inclusion.
Caroline McDaid:
What is more challenging is what is the impact on that person's life? And that's really unique to the individuals that we're supporting. There's a particular research piece around this. It's really survey based, and looking at educational outcomes. So it's a programme that's designed to provide hardware, software, to disadvantage young people. And what we're doing is measuring the educational outcomes and the impact on various elements of their life over a 3, 6, 12, maybe beyond period, so that we can actually assess the tangible impact that that's having. So it's definitely a long game. Impact measurement can be quite a long game. So it's something that we are focused on, but definitely it's challenging.
Mark Jones:
I'm interested just to explore this a little bit further, because I think there's a lot of organisations out there, from a corporate perspective, that are looking at a social enterprise like yours and wanting to understand how you got to the position of being able to choose which indicators you're going to measure, for example. So you mentioned some of the outcomes and long term impact for individuals and choosing aspects of lifestyle and health and other things that will be sufficient indicators. And the context here is if you are supporting or giving money to a charity, for example, how do I know that that money is actually making an impact? Or if we're going to apply for more funding for our foundation, how can we demonstrate we're making an impact?
Mark Jones:
And then also another part of this is if I want to tell stories, we call it impact stories, I need evidence to demonstrate that the sort of long term sustained positive change you're speaking about here in these communities or with the kids, is actually happening. So they're almost like evidence based stories. This is not very much part of our typical marketing vernacular yet, so it's an interesting situation that's emerging. You mentioned, this is, the holy grail, impact measurement, right? But I still think we're a long way from really understanding from a leadership perspective, the importance of this whole conversation. I'm interested in your reflections on that journey that you've been on here.
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah. I think it comes to finding your, why. How do you get to the ultimate impact that you are trying to measure? So you could start, for example, we're giving devices to marginalised students, so great, we've provided a thousand devices. But why? Why did we provide that device? Oh, because we wanted to improve educational outcomes. And why did you want to provide improved educational outcomes? And if you can keep picking at the why, it helps you to get to that end point around what is the actual impact that we want to measure here? Because we're not giving devices to kids so that they can do more on social media. It's about what is the ultimate outcome that we're trying to get to and what is the best way?
Caroline McDaid:
So is it getting down to the level, we say, okay, we'll measure academic outcomes over that period of time, before and after, and look at the way that those have changed? Or is it looking at just attitudes? Because that's part of what we are looking to measure in this particular programme. What are the attitudes and the responses from the children that we're supporting, or the young people we're supporting, and how have they changed? I think this is the challenge of a social impact measurement, there's no one answer. It does really depend on your why and your purpose.
Mark Jones:
It's eternally frustrating, actually. We'll never unpick this thing. But if I could borrow from the top down, bottom up dynamic, the bottom up would suggest when we think about the kids, what do they need? How do we understand their needs? And then if you work up from how we could support that from outcomes or programmes and services, in your case tech, right? And then from the corporate side, and from even just any organisation, there's a top down directive that we will give X dollars. We will do certain things. We'll give 1%, for example, of revenue, profits and time, all those sorts of good things. And somewhere in there is a meeting of the two.
Mark Jones:
And I wonder how you approach that from both a leadership perspective and a marketing perspective, because I think one of the dilemmas that we're unpacking here is that there's impact washing, which is that we're using it to justify the fact that, well, we already said we were going to give 200, 300 grand or whatever it is, to an organisation to do a thing. And now we're just making sure that we look good. And then the other side there's, well we need the money. So we've got to come up with an authentic, legitimate, an approach with a lot of integrity to justify why we need certain amounts of money. So there's two pressures going on here, isn't there?
Caroline McDaid :
Yeah. That's right. Where do the two meet?
Mark Jones:
Yeah. In a boardroom usually.
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Look, I think you're right. From our perspective, I think, the reason we're doing some of these deeper dives into impact is that we need to get down to that granular level, to then get back out again and, find that happy medium that is relevant for the donors. You go deep to then come back out again and have that helicopter view. But I think without having the granular view, it's difficult to come back and have that happy medium.
Mark Jones:
Look, that's actually a really great insight. You need both. It's a both end story, isn't it? Yeah. You can't have the insight without the data, and there needs to be a shared understanding about different priorities, which I guess, connects to this concept of a social enterprise, right? I'm really interested in how you've balanced this idea of profit with social impact, and those two things can run together.
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah. And the business model is really integral to every social enterprise because if you don't have the business model right, you're doomed to failure. WorkVentures, as I said, has been around for such a long time. Our business model has definitely evolved over time. I think where it works right now is we have four, relatively disparate on the face of it, programmes. And the secret sauce for us is the point of intersection. So we have what we call our youth employment solutions, which is where we find opportunities for young people, either internally or externally, in the form of traineeships. So, we have our own trainees internally who are doing an IT traineeship. They provide the tech support to our partners who take on the devices that we provide. And they also do the refurb on the devices. So we're providing them with an IT traineeship, and during that process, they are learning how to refurbish devices and to provide high levels of technical support.
Caroline McDaid:
We have a second area solution, which is our IT solutions, and that's where we take the devices that have been donated. We refurbish them, we wipe them, we add software, and then we get those back out to not-for-profits. Our logistics solution is where we collect the devices. So that's where we work with partners, like I mentioned, the Westpac and the NBNs. We go out and we decommission end of life technology, and we bring it in house. We provide certification, that it's all been sanitised. And then that feeds into our digital inclusion programmes. And then the last area of solution is our tech solutions where we provide repairs that extend the useful life of technology.
Caroline McDaid:
So these four programmes all intersect in terms of our business model. So, we provide these logistic solutions to organisations. One of the inputs is income and the other input is device donations. That provides an input into our IT solutions, which, we then work with not-for-profits at a much lower price to get those out to the people that need them most. And that's fueled by the trainees who come in and do these IT traineeships. Learning a really great set of skills. And so I guess the model for us is not simple, but it works because we have these four different lines of business, which are all supporting each other. And I think together, it just works.
Mark Jones:
I'm really interested to know about the marketing function at your organisation. Who looks after that?
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah, I'm really, really lucky to have an amazing head of marketing Bahar Naser. I pinch myself every day that we actually have her as our head of marketing, because I think any company in the country would snap her up in a second. Maybe we should edit this bit out. Bahar is just such a unique blend of human. She's data driven, technical. She's got a PhD in computer science, for heaven's sake. She can build websites. She can create her own social media marketing tools. But on the flip side, she's creative and she creates videos. She writes great content. But I think for me, the most important thing is that she believes in our vision and our impact. That's probably the most important thing around what makes a really fantastic marketer, is that they believe in the vision of the organisation, because I truly believe you can only fake it till you make it for so long, as a marketer of an organisation. And if you don't believe in that vision, you're unlikely to have a long and successful career as a marketer within an organisation.
Mark Jones:
That's really great to hear. And I'm so glad you've got somebody of that calibre in your organisation. It particularly matters in the social sector where somebody's already in the organisation, because they want to make a difference and then to find somebody with the passion and the skills, well, yeah, let's not mention her name, just for your sake. I'm just kidding.
Caroline McDaid:
Yeah. Look, I think it really depends on where you are as an organisation. For us, we're small, we need someone who can sit across everything and whereas, if you're a larger organisation that's really important to have those specialisms. So we are very blessed to have someone that's got this incredible range and also is incredibly talented in what she does.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. That's great. Well, so what's coming up? You've also got a vision for the organisation that's no doubt growing, and I'm just keen to hear what's coming up.
Caroline McDaid:
So just in terms of what's next and where do we see WorkVentures going, WorkVentures has historically been really focused on addressing digital inclusion through a hardware and tech support model. One of the things that we're really doing is expanding that out or blowing it up, because if you work through the Australian Digital Inclusion Index, there are many barriers to digital inclusion, and we think that we should be addressing all of those. So whether it's access to the internet, whether it's digital skills, whether it's cyber security, access to devices, so we have set ourselves up to now be able to support organisations and addressing any of the barriers to digital inclusion, so that we become that one stop shop, I suppose, in supporting anyone that does face any of those barriers. So that's one thing that we've done over the last few months.
Caroline McDaid:
More broadly, we see one of the big opportunity areas is around tech skills shortages and how we can enable bringing in people from diverse backgrounds, to fill some of the tech skills that we're seeing across the country. So bringing together this experience we have in training young people and also in IT. So one of the areas that we are looking at right now is cyber security. So the idea is that we start supporting young people from these marginalised backgrounds, into cyber careers and working with some of the not-for-profits that we support to really protect the not-for-profit industry when it comes to cyber security as well. The not-for-profit industry is quite exposed when it comes to cyber security. And we see ourselves quite well positioned to both support young people in a career that they may otherwise not even consider, and also provide that support to the not-for- profit industry. So that's something that's in its infancy, but it's really exciting, and it's a direction that I think we see our organisation going a bit more broadly in terms of addressing tech skills gaps.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Well Look, I'm really encouraged too, by the story of WorkVentures and how you've come to this point. So I think for many people who think about this, can I do it type thing, clearly the answer is yes, and you're a great example. So I really appreciate that. And thank you so much again for sharing your story with us. It's been great to have you on the show. I appreciate it.
Caroline McDaid:
Thanks so much for having me.
Mark Jones:
It's a pleasure.
Mark Jones:
So that was my conversation with Caroline McDaid.
I think what really stuck out for me was this idea of impact measurement as the holy grail of not-for-profits and social enterprises. It is something that’s relevant for all sectors as it really covers how we measure our impact in the world and differentiate between outputs and outcomes.
It’s worth thinking about when we plan any marketing activity - how can this make a positive impact and what metrics will we use to measure it.
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That’s all from me this time, thank you for joining us on The CMO Show. As always, it’s been great to have you with us. Until next time.