How Thankyou lets its values do the talking
Thankyou co-founder Justine Flynn stops by the show to bring Mark up-to-speed on new developments at the beloved social enterprise. From measuring and communicating impact to the unexpected perils of drawing an imperfect circle - there’s lots to take away from this episode of The CMO Show.
As marketers, we have the opportunity to change the way our products and services are positioned in the marketplace. So how do you make important decisions about your brand?
For Justine and Daniel Flynn, co-founders of Thankyou, a forensic examination of who they are and why they exist has aided decision-making and allowed the social enterprise to increase the impact it has on communities around the world.
“I think it was Roy Disney who said that ‘It's not hard to make decisions when you know what your values are’,“ says Justine.
“What we're mostly passionate about is that customers can wake up and do something they would do in their everyday life, like take a shower or wash their hands, and actually make an impact towards lifting people out of poverty.”
So with their vision and purpose clearly defined, and more than $17.5 million given away to date, how do Justine and her team stay focused and set a course for the future?
“It’s working out what your 5% is and going strong on that,” she explains.
“80% of what you do someone else can do, 15% of what you do, someone you’ve mentored and trained can do, but that 5%, that’s what only you can do.”
We hope you enjoy Justine’s conversation with Mark and get behind the great work Thankyou continues to do for people all around the world.
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Credits
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The CMO Show production team
Producer – Rian Newman
Audio Engineers – Ed Cheng & Daniel Marr
Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au
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Transcript
Participants:
Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Justine Flynn
How do you make decisions about your brand? In marketing, we have the opportunity to change the way our brand, our products and our services are positioned in the marketplace. We've got logo design campaigns, messaging and product names, and the list goes on. The question is, what's your North Star? How are you making decisions? Are they based on a core set of values or something else?
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Hello, how are you doing? Mark Jones here. So great to have you with us on another episode of The CMO Show. Now, my guest is Justine Flynn. She's co-founder at Thankyou. This is an organisation that used to be famous for water, but today it's focused on all sorts of consumer products, including hand washes and other things that you will find in the supermarket and all sorts of good places.
It's a social enterprise, which means that it gives its profits to charity, and it's got a big focus on distribution of funds to worthy causes. And in particular, this is an organization focused on ending extreme poverty and it has given away more than $17.5 million to that end. It's owned by the Thankyou Charitable Trust, and it uses that trust to distribute its funds.
So it's a fascinating model. And my interview with Justine, we look at “How have you shaped the brand? What's been going on since the founding of the business? How are you growing and what are you thinking about from a decision making perspective?”
Mark Jones
Thank you for joining us.
Justine Flynn
Thanks for having me.
Mark Jones
Yeah. Now, we have been so excited to have you on the show, partly because we're fans, customers, whatever you want to call it, of the brand, and we've, like so many people in Australia, seen the brand out there for many, many, many years. And also love the whole social enterprise thing. I think one of the first questions that really has stuck out for me, when I've thought about your journey, is that you really did begin with a very big idea back in 2008, which was to change the world. So how's it going?
Justine Flynn
It's going very good. We've definitely gone through all of our ups and downs along the journey. And, at the moment, we're going through a bit of a transition, but it's still going strong. And yeah, we're doing well.
Mark Jones
What do you mean by transition?
Justine Flynn
So, in 2020, we launched a campaign called No Small Plan, and it came out of this realisation that we can continue what we're doing and it would probably be another maybe 15 years before we're actually looking at global in the model that we had. Daniel and I personally went through a journey of looking at this concept of what is your 5%? So it's looking at 80% of what you do, someone else can do, 15% of what you do, someone who's mentored and trained, and then 5% only you can do. And what's your 5%? And to go in strong on that and look at partnerships and other people that you can get around to support you with those other things.
So we looked at that with Thankyou and realised there are some companies out there that they do this day-in, day-out, and what's Thankyou's 5%, and how can we continue to grow focusing in on that? So we launched a campaign in 2020 called No Small Plan. We often joke that we should have called it No Short Plan, because it's taken us a lot longer than what we had hoped for.
But it's basically going out to the bigger companies and saying, "Hey, guys, you're really good at distribution, you are really good at getting this product out everywhere, can you guys do that side of it? And we'll focus in on the philanthropy, the marketing and the things that we know I guess, is our 5%." So that's still on a journey, and we're looking at, yeah, pivoting this model of a very partnership-based focus, rather than thinking we can just do everything. We know that we can get others around us who can probably do it better.
Mark Jones
Well, look, I think sympathies for 2020. What a year to start something like this, right? So you've been through the whole pandemic journey, and from what I can understand, you're talking now about getting out of, I guess, logistics and manufacturing and lots of detail that other people can really do, and I like the focus aspect to that. From a brand perspective, it sounds to me like the idea of Thankyou is really what drives you guys and what makes you different. Is that the 5% or am I misreading what you're saying?
Justine Flynn
I think what we're mostly passionate about is this concept of Thankyou that you can wake up and do something that you would do in your everyday life, like take a shower, wash your hands, those sort of things, and yet, it's actually going to make an impact towards seeing people receive these funds that are able to help them lift themselves out of poverty.
Mark Jones
Okay. So I have a bit of experience in that space, too. I think poverty is something that's an interesting idea in Australia, because it's not part of the, I guess, mainstream understanding of what's going on in our culture. We think about lots of countries in Asia where people live on, well less than a dollar a day. I've spent some time in the Philippines, for example. So, how do you contextualise that idea of poverty for a wealthy mainstream audience in Australia?
Justine Flynn
That's a very, very big topic, we've gone straight in big here, like it is huge.
Justine Flynn
Because we often look at things that are right in front of us, and right in front of our faces and especially, I feel, even with the pandemic, I think we've become a lot more insular and been looking more at just the community around us. And a lot of that is very healthy. But at the same time, the world has gotten worse off through the pandemic, as you can imagine. So before the pandemic, there was 648 million people lived in extreme poverty, in 2019. And then, when the pandemic hit, approximately 71 million people became extremely poor during the pandemic. I think they're saying about 60% of that is within the sub-Sahara Africa region.
And I think one of the things we've have noticed is how much everything that we do affects everyone globally as well, because we are a global world. And I think it's also looking at our backyard like we are a global village now, and we have to look at that, and everything we're doing is impacting other nations around the world as well. And so, it helps us have a look at that from that perspective. I think that we absolutely need to be looking at our community, the world around us, but Thankyou's mission, we've decided we're going to tackle this extreme poverty. So, looking at those living on less than $2.15 a day.
Mark Jones
In the past, particularly in those early days, in 2020, you had a real big hand in , thinking about the brand, right? So tell me what that experience was like.
And I'm particularly interested in understanding, this is my word, but I think of this as like, all brands have a heartbeat. There's an idea that lives in the brand, and we try to embody that heartbeat in the expression. So everything from the colours, the style, the approach, the story. Give us a bit of an insight into what you were going through at the time and how you think that experience panned out.
Justine Flynn
Yeah, I think as founders and even a founding team that was, I guess, spearheading the organisation for many years, a lot of it came really ingrained into us, and it became normal. But as we got new members joining the team, we realised there was this disjoint on what we knew and felt in our heart was, "This is how Thankyou is." Was hard to articulate it wasn't articulated properly or well. And as people who we thought we were okay communicators, we had to then realise, "Oh, we actually haven't dived down deep enough."
And it was our art director, Lucy, was like, we're looking at doing a new rebrand on the logo, and she's trying to get understanding on our current logo and going, "But why? But why? But why? But why?" And it actually took us going, "Oh, okay, we've actually got to sit down and ask ourselves these, "But why" questions and go really, really deep. And we did that. We sat down and we had a look at everything, from where to go of our brand of why we do things, how we do things, why they're done a certain way. And we really pulled apart, I guess, who we were and our identity so to speak.
I think it was Roy Disney who said that "It's not hard to make decisions when you know what your values are." And we had this list of nine different values, but it was hard to actually pull it all together into this roadmap. Yeah, so we're able to do that and put together, I guess, this little, I couldn't say it's little, but manual.
But like, even our new logo, we were looking at our logo and we did have someone who's a logo specialist, that we bumped into, and he was like, "Yeah, it's just missing your humanity." Because we are all about humanity and about the rawness. And so, we ended up doing a lot of work on it. And we're just like, how is the tweak here? And we've actually changed the second. It's actually funny, because we've spent so long with the designers, our art director, myself, trying to make an imperfect circleand it just makes us laugh at how much time we spent making the circle imperfect.
Mark Jones
Get one of your kids to draw it.
Justine Flynn
Yeah, right? How could it be this hard? But it's of that concept that you can't actually humanly do a perfect circle. Apparently it's not possible for anyone to, with hand, do a perfect circle. So we've got this imperfect circle at the back that shows our humanity but also shows, I guess, it represents so much to us. Even the world in which we live in, the complexities that there is. So yeah, there's a lot of meaning there, and just pulling out the meaning of everything and being able to know it and know how to run and operate.
Mark Jones
So, you partly answered the question that immediately jumped in my head was, connect that story to the visual and the brand expression. So, the imperfect circle is an expression of your humanity, is that right?
Justine Flynn
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Jones
And your people focus, right?
Justine Flynn
Yeah.
Mark Jones
I think you're quite well known for the colour black. Turns out it is the new black. It's the first thing that stand... I do workshops on brand and identity, and marketing and strategy. And quite honestly, when I ask people to name your favourite brands, it's always Coke, Nike, Apple. And inevitably, there's a colour reference and there's a logo symbol reference that immediately come to mind, and motively what people like about those brands.
So, I guess, I'm wanting you to maybe draw some more of those threads together for us. Because I think this is probably one of the hardest things in marketing is brand identity, and actually the connection to the organization's identity. And it's a very, very difficult thing to unlock. It almost feels like we've oversimplified it sometimes, that we've left something on the table.
Mark Jones
How did you work your way through that? Was it just muddle through, or is there a handy three-step guide you've got or?
Justine Flynn
I think for us it was definitely a workshop. Obviously, myself and Daniel as founders, but also our designers as well, and art director, Lucy, and it was looking at what is the representative, going back to those values that we had and then how does everything express out of there? But we've got a white logo on black, and for us, it's representing that light is greater than darkness and to always choose the light. It's one of our values in that, I guess, it could come out of the integrity kind of thing.
But for us, it's always choose the light in making our decisions. I guess, darkness represents a state of the world, that there is a lot of heaviness and stuff going on, but we can actually choose the light. So that's one of the representations, but it's having that thoughtfulness in everything and that why within everything. It helps, also, make sure when we do decide to change things and mix them up, we also have an understanding, too, of why that's different. So going on that journey.
Mark Jones
Yeah. And this is brand storytelling at it's purest, in my view, is that the brand itself reflects a story and also tells the story. There's an interrelationship, which is why I'm fascinated by it. To change topics just a little bit.
Justine Flynn
Sure.
Mark Jones
Another thing that I wanted to think about, with this big picture perspective, is that there's been an incredible interest in purpose-driven brands, social enterprises, like yours, in the last few years, and it's really driven by consumers who are looking for this, right? So you are satisfying a demand as well as leading that. How have you been able to push through the barriers? Because in my view, Thankyou's a brand that's always done something different before many other people, and that takes a level of courage and, I don't know, daring really. And it's quite hard for leadership teams, who say they want to do a good thing, but to actually take the risks that you guys do. So, give us a bit of an insight into what that's like. Because you've got, obviously, yourself and Daniel and Jarryd Burns, a other co-founder. You guys must just have a penchant for just do it anyway.
Justine Flynn
Yeah. I think for us it's the core and the reason we started. I think there's different ways of looking at purpose, and for us, it's the core of what we do. It's not just a... I know when we started, there was a lot of what was called cause-related marketing and that would sometimes frustrate us a little bit at the beginning. I'm talking about 10 years ago now. Because we could see that it was, there'd be different brands that would be like, "We'll pay this much if you buy this product," but yet, we knew they were actually making so much money from that. And so, they were using purpose as a way to make more money for themselves.
Mark Jones
Purpose washing.
Justine Flynn
Yeah. And yet, for us, it was like, well, this is the core of what we're doing. Because Thankyou's owned a hundred percent by our charitable trust, so everything that we do is actually for the end of extreme poverty. It's a reason it exists and it is the core purpose. So, I think from that being the startup, the frustration, I think, that's come is we've got that journey to, I guess, steward this element of that. We've got to go in, we've got to go big.
For us, we've had a lot of conflict along the way, or should I say resistance along the way, not understanding social enterprise properly and what we do. Startup days, we had a lot of people being like, "Why don't you just be a full business and then just give from that?" Or, "Why don't you just be a full charity?" And there's been this resistance. Obviously, we're like, you buy this product and then all our profit funds projects in developing countries. So, I guess, the pushback has come on, I know the early days, we were literally door knocking trying to get into mom and dad's stores, what would you call them? Like convenience stores, corner stores, et cetera.
And the pushback was just unbelievable, because it was like, "Oh, no, but I can buy this other brand for 10 cents cheaper." And we'd be like, "Yeah, but you can make a difference." And at the end of the day, people aren't really caring, and that was frustrating to us. And it was a realisation to us that we actually need to probably get commercial here and we need to compete regardless of the purpose that we do. So we actually did a survey, at one point, on our brand and we saw that there was about probably even over 50% of people who bought our brand didn't realise the impact they were making or that we were even giving to impact.
Mark Jones
Yeah. And it's a real dilemma, because people will, and there's various studies out there, but they will only pay a very small percentage extra if they know you're making a difference. In the climate that we're in right now, obviously economically, I imagine that's even smaller or, in fact, negligent, right? They'll look at the supermarket brands and just choose the cheapest, from the majority of consumers point of view, right? What I'm hearing you talk about is this ongoing dilemma about how do we run this thing?
Justine Flynn
Yeah. In the early days we came across this book, Do Purpose. Basically, it had in there this quote that we ended up putting up on our wall. It was like, "Rule number one, make good product. Rule number two, never use a cause to sell an average product." And we had that in the various sight days. It was like this, I guess, expectation that if you're doing something for charity, it's okay to be average. Yet, I think we realised, well... It was this quote I heard, sorry, I'm just giving you all the quotes right now.
Mark Jones
Love it.
Justine Flynn
And it was that, "All labour which exists to uplift humanity is important and should be undertaken with painstaking excellence." And it was this twist on that, or a flip on that, should I say of, no, what we're doing is actually important and it actually should have the best branding, it actually should have the best quality product, because it's important, and the people that we exist to serve, deserve it. They deserve the best. They don't deserve the scraps or what we can pull together. And by doing that, and by putting our best on the table, that's where we had over 50% of people buying our product, without even realising that it's because of the cause anyway. They're buying it because they actually like the product.
Mark Jones
In B2C, simplicity is also key. So there's this idea that, "I'll buy Thankyou, and 50% of their profits goes to charity." That's just the simplest of ideas. That hasn't changed, has it?
Justine Flynn
We are still coming up against that quite a bit in B2C, where it's like, "Yeah, how can we simplify this?" And, "Can we stock your product but can it go towards this cause particularly?" Look, it was a journey even I, as brand director had to go through in Thankyou. So when we started, as we started to branch out into all of the different categories that we had, we had water, which we don't have anymore at the moment. Our water funded water projects, our personal care range funded hygiene and sanitation, our baby range funded maternal and infant health projects, our food range funded food projects.
And so, as a marketer, this is great. It's a simple correlation. People get it, you buy food, you're funding food, you're buying baby care products, you're helping maternal-infant health projects. This is simple. But then Pete, our impact officer, started to get on our case a little bit with this and going, "Hey, this is sounding good and this is great, but it limits us in the impact that we can make."
Justine Flynn
If we're only giving in this one particular area, we're actually not giving the best impact that we can make. So if we are going to community and we are saying, or a charity, "We're only funding your water project, but we're not going to fund this and that and everything else," you're not holistically changing and making an impact on that community. And so, it went on a journey for us of, one, realising this, but two, then actually making the call and making the leap to go, "Oh, can we sacrifice dropping these claims and broadening it?" So now we say, helps end extreme poverty. What that means for us is that we're actually able to give more authentically and be able to make more of a sustainable impact on a community, without those restrictions in place of just this and just that.
Mark Jones
Well, I think, to jump in, but ends extreme poverty is actually a simpler idea than food is connected to food charity, baby product is connected to kids' charity, et cetera. That's actually, even that, at a consumer level, is a little complicated.
Justine Flynn
Yeah. I feel like the correlation and the link was stronger perhaps. Because even now, B2C, we still have a lot of pushback on our ends extreme poverty, because it's probably too vague. And it's not like you're doing this, you don't have that, I guess, as a parent that buys baby care products and they're having that emotional connection to also helping safe births in Nepal, for example. So, we're still doing and funding the safe births in Nepal, and working with One Heart Worldwide. Here's one of our amazing organisations there on the ground doing incredible work, but we've just opened it up to make it less restricted.
Mark Jones
To that point, I saw Daniel speak at an industry conference recently and he spoke about unrestricted funding, and this beautiful video that you guys have done that had me from the get-go. I was sharing it all over the place. The interesting thing about that, and I can imagine the pushback would be, if we're going to give money to Nepal, to any of these projects that you've mentioned, but you're not going to be involved in, I guess... In the past, the conversation has been, "Well, we're going to tell you how we would prefer you to spend the money we give you." Right?
Justine Flynn
Mm-hmm.
Mark Jones
The approach seems to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, "But we'll give you the money and we're going to trust you to do the best thing with it." But does that mean that you actually step back from really being involved in that organisation? Does it mean that you're not part of the upfront conversations, or even from a relationship point of view, does it change things? And I guess the reason why I ask that, too, is that if the perception comes from a consumer perspective, they give the money away, but they're not really connected. Does that make sense? They're not really involved. And we do have an expectation of charities to be deeply involved.
Justine Flynn
Yeah. And I think it's important from the transparency as well. I think that's a big one, too, is looking at the transparency, the reporting, the data, everything. And I think with us, we definitely do our due diligence. We're not just going out there to any charity and being like, "Here's some money." We're literally doing our due diligence, making the reference check, checking the results this organisation is already having, and proving in that. We use this analogy where we talk about, if you were to go in for heart surgery, you would find the best surgeon.
That you would pay what you need, but then you wouldn't be there involved, telling them exactly what needs to be done, in which way. You probably wouldn't have your wife there, watching over the shoulder saying, "Oh, no, you need to do it this way and that way." There's a bit where you actually have to step back and trust the work that they've been trained to do, that they know, because they're day and out, living and breathing the complexities that they're facing. And so, I think that's one of the dangers that we realise with this donor dysfunction is that because we have the money, we have the power.
And we have the power to control, we want this or we want it done that way. And we realise that, in a lot of incidences, the control came to you more of what looks better? What looks better from a marketing perspective? We, at one point, had up on our wall at Thankyou, "This is the number of people that we've helped impact." And then we found ourselves in the meetings, looking at projects we're funding and it came to situations, "Well, there's this project that we could fund and it's quite a cheap solution, it's short term, but it's going to help a lot of people, but only on a short term, cheap way, that maybe someone else could actually do." Or-
Mark Jones
It'll give us a lot of numbers, but probably not make a difference.
Justine Flynn
Yeah. And then there was this impact opportunity in Timor-Leste, of this remote community. The cost per capita was quite high, but it was a remote community that didn't have access to safe water. And we're looking at that and going, "Okay, well, what is the right thing to do here?" And it's quite complex as you can imagine. But for us, it was looking at what is impact and how can we make the best impact here, what we're doing.
Mark Jones
To that point, how do you approach the concept of social impact measurement? What approach do you bring to understanding that? Because you have a common problem with many foundations, charities and others that choose to give their money away. You want to make sure that it's going to the right cause and that it's actually having a long-term effect. That's what you're touching on there.
Justine Flynn
Yeah, yeah. We've got four different things that we look at there. We're looking at is the organisation impact driven? So, can they create measurable positive change through their programmes? We're also looking to see if they think critically about changing systems. We look at whether they have an end game, so can they transition this and move it on to another community? An example of that is our organisation that we're funding in Nepal. They go into a community, they work with government, they work on the ground, with teams, volunteers.
They have this, what they call their network of safety model that they set up. And then it gets to a point where a community down the road starts going, "Hey, we can see that's really working, we want that." So they're able to then just move down to the community and the road, and then the community they've just left is sustainable and able to keep on going. And so, that creates, I guess, that ongoing impact. And then the other thing we look at, like any investors do, is the team, do they have a remarkable team and do they have that credibility, good references and that sort of thing?
Mark Jones
Yeah. Well, look, one of the things that I have picked up from our conversation is this idea of constantly trying new things, not being afraid to get it wrong, and you don't always know how to do the next best thing. There's a sense of adventure, which I personally like, but I also think there's a real parallel to the normal life of CMOs and marketers, where in many cases, we haven't done this thing before, haven't done an activation before, I haven't done a brand redesign before, I haven't done X, Y, Z.
And there's just the sense of being honest about that and not quite making it up, but doing your best shot. I feel like that's an interesting part. When we're comfortable and courageous enough to be open with people, that that's what we're doing, and to bring people along the journey rather than put up a front. It seems to be a different and, I think, more interesting way of understanding how a social enterprise, like yours, can operate. Is that a fair reflection of at least one part of the journey?
Justine Flynn
Yeah, I'd say so. We would call ourselves a pioneering organisation. Back in the day, not too many years ago, we had pioneering as one of our values. And I remember, we had a speaker come in to talk to our team and she said, "There shouldn't be an organisation that has pioneering and excellence in the same set of values." And we had that. So we're kind of low-key dying here. But she's like, because when you're pioneering, I guess, trailblazing, it's never been done before. You're not going to get it exact and right and perfect that first time.
But you're literally trailblazing here, breaking new grounds that hasn't been before. And so, you learn as you go. And then as the more and more you do it. So excellence and perfection comes with repetitiveness. As you do it over and over again, you're able to become better at it. So that's, I guess, where we looked at that and went, what is our value of excellence then? Because if we're not actually attaining for perfectionism or, I guess, is excellence, what is it that we're attaining from? For us, we realise it was our heart and our passion.
We want to actually give our all to it. We want it to be the best we can be. So we can still add that in. But yeah, add it in with the pioneering. And I think we need to do a lot of pioneering at the moment. Hey, because the world has flipped quite significantly the last few years and everyone's just readjusting to, I guess, what this new normal is. And from that is going to come a lot of new pioneering to, I guess, see new breakthroughs and change of systems. It's not going to be necessarily neat.
Mark Jones
What would be your vision for other social enterprises on their own journeys, with reference to that change that we're all going through? What do you reckon the next few years might look like for social enterprises? Maybe what would be the most ideal outcome from your point of view? Because we have an expectations that social enterprises are helping us change the world. What do you think will be the best picture of what that could look like?
Justine Flynn
I'd say it's taking a deep look at the why, the purpose, I guess that core reason of why you exist, and having a look at it from the perspective of how can we make true impact? I think when you start from there and you get that core and that passion strong, I guess it helps you make those decisions for everything else. That's where we've led to. But as social enterprises, as we can all stand together, making the impact in the different spheres and passions that we have, that if we're really double-down focused on that core impact rather than what looks good, I think we're going to see significant impact made.
Mark Jones
Justine, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm inspired by the journey that you and your co-founders have been on, and there's so many more exciting things to come, of course. Thanks for sharing your insights as well. I think many marketers will be really intrigued and inspired as well. Yeah, all the best as you look at what the future might hold.
Justine Flynn
Thanks so much.
So there we go. Justine Flynn and the story of thank you and where they're at today. I particularly liked her. Roy Disney quote, of course, the brother of Walt Disney. The quote was, “It's not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are.” I like that possibly from an aspirational perspective that some of the decisions that we have to make as marketers, as communicators, as storytellers, maybe they could get a bit easier.
But it's not always the case. We still faced with complexity, but I do like the idea of being reminded that we grounded decisions based in the set of values that guide our organisation. Of course, we talk a lot about purpose being purpose driven, and here at ImpactInstitute, we're particularly interested in what's the long term, sustained, positive change.
In other words, what are those outcomes delivering? How are people and communities being shaped by the sorts of decisions that you make? In this case, at a marketing level, also at a brand level and even higher up as an organisation, which way are you going? And we've seen over time that CMO's are particularly influential when it comes to representing the so-called voice of the customer.
That sense of strategic direction about where we're going and is everything out there in the marketplace consistent with that core vision, with that core purpose, with that idea of who we are, what's our heartbeat, and how well are we getting that idea across? So it's been really inspiring for me to hear the story of ThankYou and I hope that you got a lot out of it as well.
That's it for this episode of the CMO Show. You can subscribe to us on all the channels. You can check us out at Impactnstitute.com.au We'd love to hear from you, particularly if you've got some suggestions for who we should interview on the show. Always keen to talk to leading marketers CMOs in the Australian marketplace. You can also subscribe to our newsletter and I encourage you to tell all your friends.
So that's it for today. All the best and we'll talk to you soon.